Dodgy trade pictures for your amusement! - 1 Million Views!

[Darkwood]

Right ... Just been nudged to set this up by Paul.M and sounds a good idea following recent threads I've done in the Arms..

Rules....No Offensive material... edit if required before posting as this is the public arena.
Anything to do with the trade or in and around it ...H&S pic's welcome.



I've posted this a few times and this is at a mates house following a kitchen refirb several yrs ago. mg_smile:

 

[LewisM]

Is the plate earthed ?
Is there a Switch fused isolator ?

Probably not
No just a 100A isolator I just said to old matey it's not right but not my name on the cert

 

[mainline]

Probably not
No just a 100A isolator I just said to old matey it's not right but not my name on the cert

Someone needs to buy them at least a little brush for Christmas.

Rcbo + spd boards are cheap, no real reason to not fit one.

 

[Dustydazzler]

There will be 1000s of brand new build houses and flats exactly like this with 10-15 metres of Tails snaking around the fabric of the build in the walls and under the floors. I see it all the time/
No Rcd , No isolator and no way of realistically checking checking if the entire length sits at 50mm+

Code 2

 

[Simon47]

A relative was looking at a new build house and we had a look while they were under construction. Had she gone ahead with the purchase, one of the things I planned to do was ask whichever scam the electricians were in why their members issued falsified certificates of compliance - I spotted 2 without looking, one of which would have been the unprotected tails between where they came through the walls from the fugly box up to where the CU was.

 

[Dustydazzler]

IMO Metre Tails should be visible for inspection from the meter to consumer unit , I really don't like them snaking 10-15mtrs through the fabric of the building up in the walls and in the floor voids. Just seems such a naff design.

 

[Raptor0014]

Done some investigating this morning to ascertain why the earth reading is so high on the TT system I went to on Friday.

I’m hazarding a guess that this might be why.

That’s the water pipe to the property and they have done that because they couldn’t (or couldn’t be arsed to try to) get a rod in. Will find out shortly if I can or not.

 

[Dustydazzler]

is that a 6 inch off cut of copper pipe that the earth lug is connected to ?

 

[pc1966]

That’s the water pipe to the property and they have done that because they couldn’t (or couldn’t be arsed to try to) get a rod in. Will find out shortly if I can or not.

It must go plastic shortly towards the supply side (or at least non-condictive joint(s) somewhere otherwise it ought to be better. Re-label as pipe bond?

Still, see what a proper rod does, but I guess recent rain so not quite a fair comparison? Other than actually being done right, of course....

 

[Raptor0014]

So on further investigation. There is approx 2m of copper pipe, then there is alkathene back to the main pipe where the water meter is (house was only finished in Nov last year).

Anyway, after banging in 2 x 2.4m rods I’ve got the reading down to this.

And the Zappi works again.

 

[mainline]

So on further investigation. There is approx 2m of copper pipe, then there is alkathene back to the main pipe where the water meter is (house was only finished in Nov last year).

Anyway, after banging in 2 x 2.4m rods I’ve got the reading down to this.

And the Zappi works again.

View attachment 108688

What's in what I assume to be a fused connection unit ? Is that swa in / out or tails ?

 

[Raptor0014]

What's in what I assume to be a fused connection unit ? Is that swa in / out or tails ?

It’s for the Solar.

As you can see it’s a tad messy in there. But I’m not responsible for that shitshow.

 

[mainline]

It’s for the Solar.

As you can see it’s a tad messy in there. But I’m not responsible for that shitshow.

View attachment 108691

Is there an isolator ? Feeding tails to Cu ?

 

[Raptor0014]

Is there an isolator ? Feeding tails to Cu ?

There are DC & AC isolators inside the room directly behind the meter cabinet as that’s where the solar inverter is along with the battery storage and the CU for the EV.

 

[Dave OCD]

There are DC & AC isolators inside the room directly behind the meter cabinet as that’s where the solar inverter is along with the battery storage and the CU for the EV.

Sorry if I'm missing something here, but you do know the supply is TNCS there ?

 

[Raptor0014]

Sorry if I'm missing something here, but you do know the supply is TNCS there ?

It isn’t. I confirmed with the DNO. There’s no earth connected to the cutout.

In order left to right on the earth terminal are: rod, main cu, PV CU, EV CU.

 

[Raptor0014]

This is what the cutout would look like if it were PME/TN-C-S

As you can see from the label it says not to connect the earth unless all the requirements are met. This property is in the middle of nowhere and I’m guessing they couldn’t get the Ze low enough to have PME.

 

[westward10]

Have you read the notice on the service head.

 

[timhoward]

It isn’t. I confirmed with the DNO. There’s no earth connected to the cutout.

In order left to right on the earth terminal are: rod, main cu, PV CU, EV CU.

Do you know what the PSCC was? That sticker normally means PME is fine, but warns you not to just reconnect any old main earth to it without checking it meet the requirement to support the bonds (e.g. 10mm +)

I'm going to make a wild guess here, I think it was an early EV install and whoever did it decided to TT the whole place to make life easier.

 

[Raptor0014]

Have you read the notice on the service head.

Yes, now have a read of the other pic I posted.

I can categorically 100% confirm it is not PME/TN-C-S

 

[brianmoooore]

There can be reasons not to use a DNO TNC-S earth terminal, even when one is aailable.

 

[Raptor0014]

As I said I confirmed with National Grid that it wasn’t PME.

 

[brianmoooore]

As I said I confirmed with National Grid that it wasn’t PME.

Are you saying that it's not available, in spite of the sticker?

 

[Raptor0014]

Are you saying that it's not available, in spite of the sticker?

No idea if it’s available or not. They stated the property is not PME and is on TT according to their records. There is no earth in that cutout and one has never been connected

I’d guess the sticker is on all the cutouts regardless and doesn’t determine anything as it states if all the conditions aren’t met then don’t connect the earth to that terminal.

Maybe they’re supposed to pull them off but they probably expect an electrician and anyone authorised to work on the cutout to know what they’re looking at.

 

[westward10]

I cannot fully read the notice but unless we understand different English it states PME is available.

 

[brianmoooore]

It's probably available, and the sticker should be there in case circumstances change and the requirements for TNC-S can be met.
I've had to TT supplies brought into a few ramshackle corrugated iron clad farm buildings, where sheets are in contact with the ground and bonding requirements are impossible to meet.

 

[DPG]

So do we think that whoever fitted the EV point removed the PME and did the crappy TT?

 

[timhoward]

I've always taken that notice to mean "PME is possible, but make sure our side of things comply".
Not saying I'm definitely right but they do have another sticker design saying "No earth provided, the earthing type is TT" or words to that effect.
(I've apparently only got a bad photo of one which you can't read!)

So do we think that whoever fitted the EV point removed the PME and did the crappy TT?

I did suspect that, but he says there's never been an earth connection, i.e. the knockout isn't knocked out.
So I'll have to look for somewhere else to be cynical tonight.

 

[Dave OCD]

No idea if it’s available or not. They stated the property is not PME and is on TT according to their records. There is no earth in that cutout and one has never been connected

I’d guess the sticker is on all the cutouts regardless and doesn’t determine anything as it states if all the conditions aren’t met then don’t connect the earth to that terminal.

Maybe they’re supposed to pull them off but they probably expect an electrician and anyone authorised to work on the cutout to know what they’re looking at.

No they apply the stickers individually when fitting cutouts and will fit the appropriate one, have you done a Ze to the terminal under the blanking grommet ?

 

[Raptor0014]

No they apply the stickers individually when fitting cutouts and will fit the appropriate one, have you done a Ze to the terminal under the blanking grommet ?

No I didn’t as it hasn’t ever had one connected. So didn’t touch anything on the cutout.

I’ll be back there in August as they want a circuit running for aircon. So will have a look then. But odd that the DNO didn’t mention it was available. They just said their records show it’s TT.

Only other thing I can think is they never connected one as there’s quite a decent solar and battery setup (in terms of generation and storage) so maybe they did it to go full island mode and not rely on the distributor earth. But that’s just a pluck out of thin air guess.

 

[timhoward]

Anyway, well done on the earth rods!
It's not your fault if you got someone following company policy to deny all existence of ever having provided an earth to anything, anywhere. They once told me that a lead cable that had a damaged braid hanging off it had never been TNS. Thanks to this forum I had the reply ready. "Ok, no problem, but I'm sure you'll agree that it's extraneous and needs bonding....". Long silence. Then "We'll send someone out".

 

[Raptor0014]

I once had SSEN tell me that a property I was at wasn’t 3ph. Despite that fact that I was staring at a 3ph service head, 3 lives and a neutral coming out and a 3ph meter with a CU on each phase. When they eventually did send someone out as 2 of the phases had no power, they agreed it was 3ph. Then they found damage to 2 of the phases at the transformer.

 

[brianmoooore]

Not all '3Ph' heads have 3 phase supplies. I know of several, including one of my own, with 230V with respect to neutral, on two of the fuses, but with 460V between them, and I know of one where two of the fuses are live, but are both connected to the same single phase.

 

[mainline]

We have just had another supply put in, 2 phase, no earth connection supplied.

Phoned Dno to see if they would allow TN, they refused connection, which doesn't make sense as all the other cottages are Tn.

A real pain for me as there are a few sub-mains battery-solar, cottage, stable, workshop and a large bio mass system.

 

[mainline]

That isn't an argument cpcs connect initially to the accessory.

You could over extend the cpc and loop it through the lug to the accessory so initially connecting to the back box first but would have thought is fine.

 

[pc1966]

Only other thing I can think is they never connected one as there’s quite a decent solar and battery setup (in terms of generation and storage) so maybe they did it to go full island mode and not rely on the distributor earth. But that’s just a pluck out of thin air guess.

To run in island mode (or any other backup power supply) requires you to have your own means of earthing, but that can be in addition to any DNO earth.

Obviously supply has to be disconnected in such modes!

I guess it might have been a TT system before the new cutout was installed and so the DNO simply left it?

 

[Dave OCD]

No I didn’t as it hasn’t ever had one connected. So didn’t touch anything on the cutout.

I’ll be back there in August as they want a circuit running for aircon. So will have a look then. But odd that the DNO didn’t mention it was available. They just said their records show it’s TT.

Only other thing I can think is they never connected one as there’s quite a decent solar and battery setup (in terms of generation and storage) so maybe they did it to go full island mode and not rely on the distributor earth. But that’s just a pluck out of thin air guess.

With a TNCS the supplier never connects a main earth conductor, that's down to us - they provide the terminal only.
I'd be tempted to arrange a quick visit from the seal fairy and have a little peek inside to see if there's a N-E link or one piece N & E block. I'd bet there is.

 

[Raptor0014]

With a TNCS the supplier never connects a main earth conductor, that's down to us - they provide the terminal only.
I'd be tempted to arrange a quick visit from the seal fairy and have a little peek inside to see if there's a N-E link or one piece N & E block. I'd bet there is.

I'm back in Aug anyway to do an Aircon circuit for them, so will have a look then. Just need to chat with the seal fairy...

 

[oscar21]

I'm the fall guy again. We do a fair bit of work for a property company, insurance work and such like and they have a few different teams as they are quite busy. I get a phone call "can I pop round to a job in the morning (done by the other team), the joiner cant find the cables for two heaters and handover is at the end of the day, spark broke his leg apparently

Bear with me, this will be a long one.

sodding electratech system, not messed with one for years. (my wagos trying to make sense of it.

First problem, newly decorated flat with 2 storage heaters removed for the renovation (flood I think) still all in one piece and full of bricks, they now look like they have been dropped out of a 1st floor window. No spur, and no cable so its saw time.

Nice live wires in the wall, certainly at night anyway.

Dismantle them ,try and straighten them out, re fit them an power them up only for the manager to say we cant leave them in I'll get two new panel heaters.

Then we find the towel radiator for the bathroom still in the bedroom, again no power, no outlet for it and its broke. (no pictures but I had to wire a new supply for a new towel rad as well so more holes) and convert to 24hr power etc.

 

[oscar21]

Next up as I'd messed around with the electratech system I thought I'd make sure the hot water still works for when they move back in. Couldn't get power to the two immersions no matter what I did so removed one of the switches.

Apart from the fact the earth is in the neutral terminal where are the immersion cables, snipped off and curled up in the loft, that's where. more problems.

Shower lid.

As well as a badly fitting lid, new 6mm supply and no RCD, no RCD for new hob supply either.

Not over yet - finds out the fridge socket is dead, I suspect it is the old kitchen storage heater supply but I cant get it powered up no matter what I do so I have to wire a new one. Take the kitchen plinth off to see if I can fish it anywhere without more damage and find this.

I sort of gave up at that point, couldn't reach it to do anything with it, job was 40 miles from home and everyone else had already gone back home so I just put the plinth back and convinced myself I'd never seen it.

Not sure what had gone wrong with that job really, was the spark that bad or have the other trades screwed him over, they do like to mess with stuff they shouldn't. I dread to think what else there is in that tiny 1 bed bungalow.

 

[oscar21]

What I did in the end was what I could, no chance of getting merlin stuff on a friday afternoon so I had to fly to toolstatioin and buy a couple of garage units and pinch the RCD's MCB's out of them. I managed to at least make it safe(ish) if not compliant, I ditched the electratech system altogether, there wasn't a control panel for it in the flat anywhere anyway, probbly been snipped off and binned.

I've saved the best until last as well (no picture unfortunately) Bearing in mind all this work, complete property renovation, client put in hotel etc was all caused by a water leak, and when I was in the loft messing with the immersions there was a bit of water dripping from the tank area, the 20mm overflow pipe from the cistern tank hadn't been glued into the elbow and it had fallen off. Tradesmen, you just cant get a decent one anymore.