EICR and subsequent remedial work

[leep82]

Ive got an EICR to do this week, and ive mentioned previously how this is somthing i wish to do more off and i feel hands on experience is the best way to learn.

The property has only 4 circuits. 1 x ring, 1 x lighting, 1 x heating and 1 x cooker. I was originally asked to go and have a quick look by the customer as they had recently moved into the house and they were a little concerned by a few things.

A full kitchen refurb is planned in the next few weeks and with this in mind aswell as the issues raised by the customer i suggested the best course of action would be to carry out an EICR. This was agreed and i was also asked if i would be able to carry out the proposed kitchen refurb.

Now when i went to visit the property a couple of things caught my eye that i know will deem the installation unsatisfactory in terms of the report. One being the 45a cooker switch supplied in 6mm2 T&E and protected by a 32a MCB, which isolates the cooker, microwave and dishwasher all supplied in 2.5mm2 T&E from the cooker switch. When the refurb goes ahead this will all be corrected but my observations will be made on the installation at the time of the inspection. And so an unsatisfactory report given.

The plan is to use the existing 6mm feed to supply the induction hob ( which currently sits disconnected in the work top ). When i test the circuit can i use the results from the unsatisfactory report to issue a new satisfactory report once any remedial work is done. Or do i need to retest? This also goes for any other issues i may find.

A minor works certificate will be issued for the kitchen refurb once completed, and im left wondering if im creating myself extra needless paper work. If the issue ive mentioned turns out to be the only thing preventing a satisfactory report would it be better to just isolate/remove from circuit, as i know i am going in to do the refurb work anyway?

Thanks

 

[Midwest]

I don't do EICR's. I've often wondered the merits of doing one on small domestic properties. Why not use money being spent on such an EICR, just to rectify the obvious?

 

[Octopus]

An EICR is a report on a property, if done now you suggest would be unsatisfactory.

A MWC should be issued for each and EVERY circuit you alter

An EIC should be issued for each new circuit/change of fuseboard

A Part P notification (in England) should be issued for each new circuit and fuseboard change

If the customer then asks for a "satisfactory" report - you need to re do it

That's the situation in a nutshell.

Such documentation is made FAR EASIER with certificates software

PS: If the 2.5mm cable is less than 2m long you can not justify a C2

 

[Risteard]

Without further details I don't see any issue or even non-compliance with BS7671 with the 2.5mm^2 cables for the cooking appliances.

 

[leep82]

I don't do EICR's. I've often wondered the merits of doing one on small domestic properties. Why not use money being spent on such an EICR, just to rectify the obvious?

The problem being that there may be more than just the obvious. The customer plans on doing quite a lot to the property and wants peace of mind that the electrical installation is of a satisfactory nature.

 

[Midwest]

The problem being that there may be more than just the obvious. The customer plans on doing quite a lot to the property and wants peace of mind that the electrical installation is of a satisfactory nature.

Just saying there's not a lot to inspect, any 'issues' would be found when altering or adding to. If the kitchens being refurbed, that's 3 out of 4 circuits your gonna be testing anyway.

 

[leep82]

This is one of the legs fed via the 45a cooker switch to supply the washing machine. It is more than likely less than 2 meters in length but i think the state of the socket still warrants a C2 doesnt it?

 

[Pete999]

Ive got an EICR to do this week, and ive mentioned previously how this is somthing i wish to do more off and i feel hands on experience is the best way to learn.

The property has only 4 circuits. 1 x ring, 1 x lighting, 1 x heating and 1 x cooker. I was originally asked to go and have a quick look by the customer as they had recently moved into the house and they were a little concerned by a few things.

A full kitchen refurb is planned in the next few weeks and with this in mind aswell as the issues raised by the customer i suggested the best course of action would be to carry out an EICR. This was agreed and i was also asked if i would be able to carry out the proposed kitchen refurb.

Now when i went to visit the property a couple of things caught my eye that i know will deem the installation unsatisfactory in terms of the report. One being the 45a cooker switch supplied in 6mm2 T&E and protected by a 32a MCB, which isolates the cooker, microwave and dishwasher all supplied in 2.5mm2 T&E from the cooker switch. When the refurb goes ahead this will all be corrected but my observations will be made on the installation at the time of the inspection. And so an unsatisfactory report given.

The plan is to use the existing 6mm feed to supply the induction hob ( which currently sits disconnected in the work top ). When i test the circuit can i use the results from the unsatisfactory report to issue a new satisfactory report once any remedial work is done. Or do i need to retest? This also goes for any other issues i may find.

A minor works certificate will be issued for the kitchen refurb once completed, and im left wondering if im creating myself extra needless paper work. If the issue ive mentioned turns out to be the only thing preventing a satisfactory report would it be better to just isolate/remove from circuit, as i know i am going in to do the refurb work anyway?

Thanks

What will you issue a MNEWscertificate for? Will you be adding any new circuits?

 

[leep82]

What will you issue a MNEWscertificate for? Will you be adding any new circuits?

I will be issuing a Minor Works cert for the ring final circuit and cooker circuit as both will be having alterations made to existing wiring

 

[leep82]

I will be issuing a Minor Works cert for the ring final circuit and cooker circuit as both will be having alterations made to existing wiring

No new circuits are being installed

 

[Pete999]

No new circuits are being installed

OK ta, how do you intend feeding the circuits that are taken from the existing 6mm2 cooker supply?

 

[Midwest]

No new circuits are being installed

I'd be tempted to persuaded client to have new circuits for the kitchen refurb, if the installation allows. New CU?

 

[leep82]

OK ta, how do you intend feeding the circuits that are taken from the existing 6mm2 cooker supply?

The kitchen is getting ripped apart and taken back to brick on some walls. My intention was to break into the existing ring final circuit to supply appliances. The 6mm2 cooker feed will then be used to supply the induction hob although the position of the switch itself needs moving

 

[Pete999]

I'd be tempted to persuaded client to have new circuits for the kitchen refurb, if the installation allows. New CU?

Yeah so would I, Kitchen refurbishment and no new circuits recipe for disaster imo

 

[leep82]

I'd be tempted to persuaded client to have new circuits for the kitchen refurb, if the installation allows. New CU?

Absolutely agree but there are no more spare ways in the consumer unit, where an RCD is acting as the main switch. Its far from ideal but does it actually warrant any form of code as far as the EICR is concerned? I dont want to scare the customer off recommending this that and the other at a great expense. Part of the reason i suggested the EICR. At least then the customer hopefully has more of an understanding of their installation.

 

[Pete999]

Absolutely agree but there are no more spare ways in the consumer unit, where an RCD is acting as the main switch. Its far from ideal but does it actually warrant any form of code as far as the EICR is concerned? I dont want to scare the customer off recommending this that and the other at a great expense. Part of the reason i suggested the EICR. At least then the customer hopefully has more of an understanding of their installation.

Change the Consumers Unit to provide more ways for new circuits then. Scare the customer? your job will be to provide the safest installation possible, not a botch just because the CU isn't big enough.

 

[Midwest]

By the time they spent money on an EICR, they'd have a CU installed.

 

[Pete999]

Absolutely agree but there are no more spare ways in the consumer unit, where an RCD is acting as the main switch. Its far from ideal but does it actually warrant any form of code as far as the EICR is concerned? I dont want to scare the customer off recommending this that and the other at a great expense. Part of the reason i suggested the EICR. At least then the customer hopefully has more of an understanding of their installation.

Change the Consumers Unit to provide more ways for new circuits then. Scare the customer? your job will be to provide the safest installation possible, not a botch just because the CU isn't big enough.

 

[Octopus]

Absolutely agree but there are no more spare ways in the consumer unit, where an RCD is acting as the main switch. Its far from ideal but does it actually warrant any form of code as far as the EICR is concerned? I dont want to scare the customer off recommending this that and the other at a great expense. Part of the reason i suggested the EICR. At least then the customer hopefully has more of an understanding of their installation.

No code.

You need to get used to delivering information that people don't always want to hear.

Its only 4 circuits so I would be talking to the client about changing to a RCBO board ....

 

[Midwest]

If it were my job, I would persude them to have a new RCBO CU, new radial or RFC for kitchen, and new lighting circuit for kitchen as well.

Then they have RFC for rest of house, and two lighting circuits. Just my opinion.

Edit beaten to it by the RCBO champion!

 

[Midwest]

PS make sure there's a bit of scope in spare ways for the new CU. Just in case those cheeky chaps at the IET have their way with AFDD's

 

[Pete999]

No code.

You need to get used to delivering information that people don't always want to hear.

Its only 4 circuits so I would be talking to the client about changing to a RCBO board ....

And wiring some circuits for sockets cabinet lighting etc, it will be on your head if you continue trying to jury rig the existing, bite the bullet and tell them what they need to know, not what they don't want to hear.

 

[leep82]

Change the Consumers Unit to provide more ways for new circuits then. Scare the customer? your job will be to provide the safest installation possible, not a botch just because the CU isn't big enough.

Botch?

By the time they spent money on an EICR, they'd have a CU installed.[/QUOTE

If it were my job, I would persude them to have a new RCBO CU, new radial or RFC for kitchen, and new lighting circuit for kitchen as well.

Then they have RFC for rest of house, and two lighting circuits. Just my opinion.

Its all ideal world stuff though. I agree with everything, apart from the botch comment which was made, but ultimately if after ive done the EICR and made recommendations such as a new consumer unit or wiring a new ring and the customer doesnt want to go ahead with such work what do i do? Surely not walk away from a job where i can still comply to current regs.?

 

[leep82]

By the time they spent money on an EICR, they'd have a CU installed.

Really? How much do you charge respectively for such work?

 

[Midwest]

Really? How much do you charge respectively for such work?

As I said, I don't do EICR's, but I've seen suggestions of around £200 for such like (EICR's)

It's your job & client, so only you know the booby more with that. Just suggesting a alternative viewpoint.

 

[Pete999]

Botch?


Its all ideal world stuff though. I agree with everything, apart from the botch comment which was made, but ultimately if after ive done the EICR and made recommendations such as a new consumer unit or wiring a new ring and the customer doesnt want to go ahead with such work what do i do? Surely not walk away from a job where i can still comply to current regs.?

OK I'll rephrase, what you are intending to do is hardly ideal for a major refurbishment, ask yourself how you would integrate the existing socket circuit in to the existing RFC, when a new kitchen ring or Radial would be more appropriate, perhaps "botch" was a bit harsh, "inapropriate
instalation" would fit the bill better.

 

[123]

How far away from the kitchen is the existing consumer unit? Is the earthing and bonding up to scratch?

 

[leep82]

I ap

As I said, I don't do EICR's, but I've seen suggestions of around £200 for such like (EICR's)

It's your job & client, so only you know the booby more with that. Just suggesting a alternative viewpoint.

I appreciate that dont get me wrong. As stated i agree with everything thats being said but as electricians weve all come across situations where doing the ideal job isnt always practical for a number of reasons. So what then?

 

[leep82]

How far away from the kitchen is the existing consumer unit? Is the earthing and bonding up to scratch?

It appears to be present, did a quick visual check and will check continuity properly when the EICR is carried out.

 

[Midwest]

I ap

I appreciate that dont get me wrong. As stated i agree with everything thats being said but as electricians weve all come across situations where doing the ideal job isnt always practical for a number of reasons. So what then?

Of course not, and my 1989 house was built with just one RFC. Is there any scope with your client, to revisit this? If not, you'll have to proceed as is, but in your OP it sounds if they want things done 'properly' ?

 

[Midwest]

By the time they spent money on an EICR, they'd have half a CU installed.

Oooopps that should have had a 'half' put in there, before anyone says anything

 

[leep82]

W

Of course not, and my 1989 house was built with just one RFC. Is there any scope with your client, to revisit this? If not, you'll have to proceed as is, but in your OP it sounds if they want things done 'properly' ?

Which is part of the reasoning behind the EICR. Once completed i can go back to the customer with my recommendations. Ive perhaps been guilty of looking at the job and trying to provide an installation that is both satisfactory but with minimal costs. As far as im concerned i not only have a duty to provide a safe installation but also to be upfront and honest with them. And i think it would be wrong to turn to them and say you need a new consumer unit, ring main etc etc when i can still provide a safe installation.

 

[leep82]

I did wonder

Oooopps that should have had a 'half' put in there, before anyone says anything [/QUOT

Oooopps that should have had a 'half' put in there, before anyone says anything

 

[Midwest]

You could proceed as is, but as you know the other option would be better. If you give your clients the options and how much it would cost, and let them decide. You've done all you reasonably can then.

 

[Pete999]

I ap

I appreciate that dont get me wrong. As stated i agree with everything thats being said but as electricians weve all come across situations where doing the ideal job isnt always practical for a number of reasons. So what then?

Can you not get some technical help fro the part P, CPS you belong to?

W

Which is part of the reasoning behind the EICR. Once completed i can go back to the customer with my recommendations. Ive perhaps been guilty of looking at the job and trying to provide an installation that is both satisfactory but with minimal costs. As far as im concerned i not only have a duty to provide a safe installation but also to be upfront and honest with them. And i think it would be wrong to turn to them and say you need a new consumer unit, ring main etc etc when i can still provide a safe installation.

 

[Midwest]

One of the proposed changes for the 18th, is limiting planned leakage current (is it 30% or something). Difficult to achieve in the planned kitchen refurb. Some way off yet, but something that should be considered with any install, along with division of installation.

 

[Midwest]

One of the proposed changes for the 18th, is limiting planned leakage current (is it 30% or something). Difficult to achieve in the planned kitchen refurb. Some way off yet, but something that should be considered with any install, along with division of installation.

Enough chit chat from me now, orrff to cook a veg curry!

 

[leep82]

One of the proposed changes for the 18th, is limiting planned leakage current (is it 30% or something). Difficult to achieve in the planned kitchen refurb. Some way off yet, but something that should be considered with any install, along with division of installation.

i got shot down on here once for a suggestion made about i think RCD protection on socket outlets and the 18th edition. Correct me if im wrong but is a proposed change that all socket outlets will be RCD protected as opposed to those rated at 20a currently. Anyway i was told you install to the CURRENT edition of the regulations.

 

[leep82]

Can you not get some technical help fro the part P, CPS you belong to?

Not currently part of any scheme. Any notifiable work i carry out i go through LABC they have me on their register as a competant person.

 

[Midwest]

Who knows what the will decide; my point is having just one RFC in a property could prove complicated, especially after one has been in there adding or altering. 'It was alright before you started'.

 

[Pete999]

Can you not get some technical help fro the part P, CPS you belong to?

 

[Midwest]

Not currently part of any scheme. Any notifiable work i carry out i go through LABC they have me on their register as a competant person.

That's interesting. No scheme fees. How does it function? Heard of a few of doing this?

 

[leep82]

That's interesting. No scheme fees. How does it function? Heard of a few of doing this?

I have to fill in a Building Notification Form along with a cheque for £80 prior to any work starting. That price is the same regardless of work, so its £80 to notify a rewire and £80 to notify installing downlights in a bathroom.

 

[123]

I have to fill in a Building Notification Form along with a cheque for £80 prior to any work starting. That price is the same regardless of work, so its £80 to notify a rewire and £80 to notify installing downlights in a bathroom.

Surely you'd be better biting the bullet and joining a scheme? It would cover those costs in what, 4-5 jobs?

 

[Midwest]

I have to fill in a Building Notification Form along with a cheque for £80 prior to any work starting. That price is the same regardless of work, so its £80 to notify a rewire and £80 to notify installing downlights in a bathroom.

Ooohhh, thought I was onto a winner there! That adds up. Have you not considered a scam, sorry scheme?

 

[Dillb]

I have to fill in a Building Notification Form along with a cheque for £80 prior to any work starting. That price is the same regardless of work, so its £80 to notify a rewire and £80 to notify installing downlights in a bathroom.

I could save you £80 per install if you like? I don’t pay a penny and never have any further problems.

 

[Midwest]

I could save you £80 per install if you like? I don’t pay a penny and never have any further problems.

I have a feeling, you have devil do care attitude? I might be wrong and have discovered utopia

 

[Pete999]

I have a feeling, you have devil do care attitude? I might be wrong and have discovered utopia

I reckon Middy, someone will blow when the rest get home from work.

 

[Dillb]

I have a feeling, you have devil do care attitude? I might be wrong and have discovered utopia

What’s the difference between

1)just issuing a numbered relevant certificate for no extra cost
2) issuing a number relevant certificate, then logging into a website and inputting the information for a fe

 

[Octopus]

I have to fill in a Building Notification Form along with a cheque for £80 prior to any work starting. That price is the same regardless of work, so its £80 to notify a rewire and £80 to notify installing downlights in a bathroom.

So 4 x £80 = £320, 10 x £80 = £800

Stroma costs £288 per year with only a website to deal with

Hum .............. let me think about that