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- Thread starter willy fixit
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B
Black Dog
Also adding pictures is easy just go to Photobucket.com
Thanks BD. EICR = Electrical Installation Condition Report. Five bedroom bungalow, test out out of time, mixed MCBs and they're Proteus! - C2 or C3?
I seem to remember hearing about proteus not being too reliable - Also what will the insurance people say if there's a fire and there's mixed MCBs? (which is not recommended by the board manufacturer)
I can perceive potential danger to my peace of mind!
I can perceive potential danger to my peace of mind!
I can't make out all the MCB markings for sure, but it looks like on this 80A-rated RCD, there are 4x32A socket ring final circuits, and 3x40A shower circuits. Despite applying diversity, might there not be the risk of this RCD getting a little overloaded, if more than one person is taking a shower at once?
could someone enlighten me as to why a mixture of different MCB's should be coded at all? If they are marked as conforming to BS60898 and physically fit properly what difference does it make? It can't possibly be a code 2
it states in manufacturer's instructions to only use there breakers, bs7671 says you need to take manufacturer's instructions into account
fair point but they are just covering their butts cos they don't test their own CU's with a mixture of other brands. A BS coded part should fit in any. So should it be a code 2????
P
Plonker 3
So every square D, Merlin Gerin DBs and all the others that Schneidermhave taken over cant have the Scneider equivalent fitted in them?
if they fit properly and everything is tight i wouldnt code it but others would and i wouldn't mock or argue with them about it.
at the end of the day an eicr is your opinion on the condition of the install for continued service
B
baldsparkies
So you take your car for an mot.
Everything checks out fine, but you have hdi headlamps and the passenger side headlight power wash isn't working.
You get a fail for it.
Take it to another garage,
Pass with the power wash down as an advisory,
Take it to yet another garage,
Pass with no advisory.
Take yer choices.
Is the power wash thingy dangerous (how clean are the headlights,how clean do you keep your car, how often has the power wash ever been used !!!)
Back to topic,
Its not dangerous, its not potentially dangerous, its C3 at the very worst.
Anything more and the general public will perceive you as a money grabbing jobs worth trying to rip em off.
And could you really blame them ???
But then again its your name on the cert.
As said you takes yer choices, and as a competent person, its your call.
One other point !!
If anyone is carrying out an EICR, they should be doing so as a competent person.
As such you should be confident in making judgements based on
your experience, knowledge, understanding, and expertise.
If you find yourself rating an installation as unsatisfactory ie C1 C2
Then you need to justify your reasoning beyond and above something more than doing so to simply cover your ---.
That's not fair to the customer, or a true or accurate reflection of the installation.
If your ever unsure about a C3 coding and mark a C2 for that reason,
then you need to ask how competent am I ????
Rant over and sorry for going on.
Everything checks out fine, but you have hdi headlamps and the passenger side headlight power wash isn't working.
You get a fail for it.
Take it to another garage,
Pass with the power wash down as an advisory,
Take it to yet another garage,
Pass with no advisory.
Take yer choices.
Is the power wash thingy dangerous (how clean are the headlights,how clean do you keep your car, how often has the power wash ever been used !!!)
Back to topic,
Its not dangerous, its not potentially dangerous, its C3 at the very worst.
Anything more and the general public will perceive you as a money grabbing jobs worth trying to rip em off.
And could you really blame them ???
But then again its your name on the cert.
As said you takes yer choices, and as a competent person, its your call.
One other point !!
If anyone is carrying out an EICR, they should be doing so as a competent person.
As such you should be confident in making judgements based on
your experience, knowledge, understanding, and expertise.
If you find yourself rating an installation as unsatisfactory ie C1 C2
Then you need to justify your reasoning beyond and above something more than doing so to simply cover your ---.
That's not fair to the customer, or a true or accurate reflection of the installation.
If your ever unsure about a C3 coding and mark a C2 for that reason,
then you need to ask how competent am I ????
Rant over and sorry for going on.
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P
Plonker 3
P
Plonker 3
But they are fitted at the time the EICR was carried so need to considered part of the install until such time they are removed.
I'll elaborate - I have been asked to remove showers, replace luminaires and install additional luminaries. I have had a quick look at the installation and I'm going offer, in the first instance, an EICR and recommendations with an estimate - I knew, from the start, that I was going to refuse the job if the client did not agree to a minimum of unifying the MCBs.
I just thought I'd get some interesting opinions and have. Thanks to all who replied - although maybe not Teletrix as I struggle to like Nirvana!
I just thought I'd get some interesting opinions and have. Thanks to all who replied - although maybe not Teletrix as I struggle to like Nirvana!
K
Knobhead
Well after wasting my time reading through this diatribe I’ve come to the conclusion the OP shouldn’t be doing EICR’s.
To write what is essentially a technical report on anything, you have to know what you are doing and not resort to asking random guy’s on the internet how to classify something. You should know!
Another observation, personal preferences are not a basis on which elements of the report should be written.
To write what is essentially a technical report on anything, you have to know what you are doing and not resort to asking random guy’s on the internet how to classify something. You should know!
Another observation, personal preferences are not a basis on which elements of the report should be written.
Yes Marvo, that is the gist of it.
For compliance with annexe ZA of BS EN 60439-3, the CU MUST meet manufacturers requirements.
Fit an MCB by A.N. Other manufacturer, then it no longer meets that.
So it is the installers responsibility under law to ensure that the modified unit complies.
So C2, no option, end of.
Unless, the design calculations and test data for the modifications are available.
If you ignore this, just make sure that IF things go wrong, you can CYA, & your insurance is up to it.
For compliance with annexe ZA of BS EN 60439-3, the CU MUST meet manufacturers requirements.
Fit an MCB by A.N. Other manufacturer, then it no longer meets that.
So it is the installers responsibility under law to ensure that the modified unit complies.
So C2, no option, end of.
Unless, the design calculations and test data for the modifications are available.
If you ignore this, just make sure that IF things go wrong, you can CYA, & your insurance is up to it.
So a DIN rail mounted MCB with its entry for the busbar in the same place is now a hazard? Reality check time.
Yes you would never do it on a new install, yes you would never do it if the correct spares are available, but if it fits exactly the same what is the problem?
(Although I would not willingly touch proteus)
Oh, and:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tWsBw3lB64
Yes you would never do it on a new install, yes you would never do it if the correct spares are available, but if it fits exactly the same what is the problem?
(Although I would not willingly touch proteus)
Oh, and:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tWsBw3lB64
R
R G
Going back to earlier times , testing for site built assemblies was seen at that time as an issue for anything that was cobbled together with different make parts , this was something I remember from the 80s , still should apply I suppose ..
Although at the time it was seen to apply to larger equipment etc , it was seen that the principle could be applied to this situation also ,
Although at the time it was seen to apply to larger equipment etc , it was seen that the principle could be applied to this situation also ,
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IF you modify a type tested assembly then you are placing a new product onto the market, end of story.
Thus you are legally responsible for ensuring that the product meets the requirement for placing on the market.
Your shout.
Thus you are legally responsible for ensuring that the product meets the requirement for placing on the market.
Your shout.
If it was a crabtree or one of those old federal beasts I would agree, but a DIN mounted assembly?
Also if we are going down your road how many extract fans without a 3A fuse protecting it do you see? How many times have you seen a cut off premoulded plug to wired straight into a fused spur?
Also if we are going down your road how many extract fans without a 3A fuse protecting it do you see? How many times have you seen a cut off premoulded plug to wired straight into a fused spur?
No Damien,
Think about the fault scenarios.
Look at the DRA that needs to be done for the change.
Then look at the requirements for the change, and the testing that needs to be done.
I will agree that it is borderline C2/C3, however, without doing the full analysis it is not possible to tell.
You will have placed an new product into the market place, without having done any testing, or design analysis, how can you say it is safe.
I would trust that you are by now aware that 60898 does not cover performance in failure scenarios, only performance under circuit fault conditions.
I don't "like" it either, but, this is what we have to live with.
Think about the fault scenarios.
Look at the DRA that needs to be done for the change.
Then look at the requirements for the change, and the testing that needs to be done.
I will agree that it is borderline C2/C3, however, without doing the full analysis it is not possible to tell.
You will have placed an new product into the market place, without having done any testing, or design analysis, how can you say it is safe.
I would trust that you are by now aware that 60898 does not cover performance in failure scenarios, only performance under circuit fault conditions.
I don't "like" it either, but, this is what we have to live with.
Thanks Tony, Living up to the Grumpy git moniker!
As I implied, I'm not after advice. I was merely being devils advocate and interested in what others might think - I will never ask for advice on this forum because, I agree with what you say, and I would not have changed my mind on the opinion of "random guys on the internet".
In saying that I do read a lot of posts here and find it interesting that a worrying number of "Electricians" do seem to ask questions on fundamental issues that they really ought to know about.
As far as personal preferences are concerned I'm really sorry about my taste in music. I'm also not keen on the Beatles! (Does that make me a really bad person?)
As I implied, I'm not after advice. I was merely being devils advocate and interested in what others might think - I will never ask for advice on this forum because, I agree with what you say, and I would not have changed my mind on the opinion of "random guys on the internet".
In saying that I do read a lot of posts here and find it interesting that a worrying number of "Electricians" do seem to ask questions on fundamental issues that they really ought to know about.
As far as personal preferences are concerned I'm really sorry about my taste in music. I'm also not keen on the Beatles! (Does that make me a really bad person?)
Yes Paul,
Think about the fact that we have argued the ---- over this one issue literally hundreds of times now and we are yet to agree.
No matter how many acronyms, statutory documents or EU directives you throw at me, you would never catch me in a month of Sundays C2'ing a different brand of breaker unless actual alterations had taken place to get it to fit.
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