Failed Eicr's for 230v bathroom downlights no rcd

[JohnS888]

With all the rush for landlord EICR's lately been getting few enquires and failed certs sent over to me to quote on remedials. Realise you need a greater grasp of regs and experience to do do eicr's on regular basis so not venturing out doing many of these myself at the moment but do find it surprising some of the failed inspections getting sent over to me. Been asked to quote on possibly changing spots or providing rcd protection to lighting circuit. Went to property today customer has 230v volt spots in property and as see in photo one above shower. Can someone correct me if seeing this wrong but even though spots are not on rcd they are 2.25m above floor so fall within zone 2. There is nothing on them suggesting their ip or fire rating but are the flush mounted type with glass seal so surely these provide at least the ip4x requirement needed and although in a block of flats the separation between floors is concrete so no requirement for fire rated fixtures? Thanks

 

[JohnS888]

Anyone out there??

 

[SJD]

... and as see in photo one above shower.

Your post didn't include any photos, as far as I can see.

 

[JohnS888]

Your post didn't include any photos, as far as I can see.

Thanks SJ forgot to include them in original post

 

[123]

The light fitting may be suitable for a bathroom, but the connection of it isn't suitable for any downlight, sadly it's an all to common occurrence.

 

[JohnS888]

The light fitting may be suitable for a bathroom, but the connection of it isn't suitable for any downlight, sadly it's an all to common occurrence.

The other spots were pretty much the same 123. This wasn't noted on his EICR just a C2 for lack of bathroom rcd protection and non fire rated fittings. As far as I see it these do look suitable and the fire rating not an issue as in block with concrete separation between floors. Would you tend to agree 123? Would probably be a C3 at most for lack of rcd?

 

[catdog1121]

Single insulated conductors outside an enclosure... C2

The reason I would C2 that is because C3 means it can stay like that forever and a day.

 

[DefyG]

What else is in the bathroom, eg. shaver socket not RCD protected?
Light fitting in zone, (are they Class 1, cpc not connected?) wiring serving location/passing through? no RCD protection in special location...... C2

 

[Dartlec]

There must be 1000s of relatively new flats done exactly like this - I did EICRs on two flats in a large block built about 15 years ago which all had RCDs on sockets only and lights very similar to this (although they were above 2.25m so outside the zone)

The lack of RCD protection being C2 or C3 is a judgement call, which is made by the inspector but guidance that is out there isn't necessarily consistent. The NAPIT Codebreakers book seems to C2 a lot of things that the ESF guidance doesn't, and potentially almost any installation without RCDs. (I believe they say anything with wiring less than 50mm and no RCD is a C2)

Personally I would C3 lights that didn't have RCD protection, unless there were other issues likely to make it dangerous (and assuming adequate Zs of course).

The single insulated conductors is a separate issue that seems to happen on every downlight I look at in these modern builds. It is as least easier to remedy than the RCD thing.

Your problem will be that the EICR will show as unsatisfactory because of no RCD protection on lighting, so the only way your remedial work can 'correct' that and be used alongside the EICR to comply for legal purposes is to fix that problem. Otherwise the landlord will need to get another EICR with that item removed and a "satisfactory" rating.

At least the landlord seems to be doing the right thing by getting quotes for remedials from other people - I imagine some will use the demand for EICR as an easy way to drive work for themselves.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I would have given that downlight a C2 due to the basic insulation being visible outside the enclosure.

As for the lack of RCD I would give that a C3 based purely on the RCD issue, unless it was a TT then a C2.

I'd like to give a C2 to a non-rated downlight with living quarters above but I expect it would be a C3, I'd have a think and research more about that one.

 

[UNG]

What else is in the bathroom, eg. shaver socket not RCD protected?
Light fitting in zone, (are they Class 1, cpc not connected?) wiring serving location/passing through? no RCD protection in special location...... C2

What type of shaver sockets do you fit that RCD protection would make a difference

 

[DefyG]

What type of shaver sockets do you fit that RCD protection would make a difference

Look at the bigger picture, Its not necessarily about a shaver socket, more about what other equipment/cabling is in or serving the special location that should be RCD protected!

 

[JohnS888]

I would have given that downlight a C2 due to the basic insulation being visible outside the enclosure.

As for the lack of RCD I would give that a C3 based purely on the RCD issue, unless it was a TT then a C2.

I'd like to give a C2 to a non-rated downlight with living quarters above but I expect it would be a C3, I'd have a think and research more about that one.

My understanding is that fire rating isn't an issue if apartment block has concrete separation between floors (surely this is what is acting as the fire and smoke barrier) so 230v hard wired LED's are fine? Most apartment block today are built this way but seems like alot of landlords getting failed eicr's for not having the specific fire rated downlights installed

 

[UNG]

Look at the bigger picture, Its not necessarily about a shaver socket, more about what other equipment/cabling is in or serving the special location that should be RCD protected!

You clearly used an example of a shaver socket needing RCD protection bigger picture or not what difference would an RCD make on a shaver socket in a bathroom unless the wrong type of shaver socket has been installed

 

[DefyG]

You clearly used an example of a shaver socket needing RCD protection bigger picture or not what difference would an RCD make on a shaver socket in a bathroom unless the wrong type of shaver socket has been installed

Most shaver sockets are supplied from the lighting circuit which should be RCD protected to current regs and I believe C2 if serving a special location!
I could have used other equipment ITS NOT ABOUT A SHAVER SOCKET!
[automerge]1598032819[/automerge]
UNG its alright marking disagree but what do you disagree with?

1. Most shaver sockets are supplied from a lighting circuit!
2. The lighting circuit should be RCD protected!
3. It should be coded C2 in the instance of the OP's thread!
or
4. It IS about a shaver socket?

 

[Welchyboy1]

Any supplementary bonding in place?

 

[JohnS888]

Any supplementary bonding in place?

From what I see there wasn't any in bathroom but 10mm's to both water and gas and all pipes of boiler cross bonded with 6mm. Bathroom didn't have any extraneous parts could be touch simultaneously I.e rad and bath basin

Most shaver sockets are supplied from the lighting circuit which should be RCD protected to current regs and I believe C2 if serving a special location!
I could have used other equipment ITS NOT ABOUT A SHAVER SOCKET!
[automerge]1598032819[/automerge]
UNG its alright marking disagree but what do you disagree with?

1. Most shaver sockets are supplied from a lighting circuit!
2. The lighting circuit should be RCD protected!
3. It should be coded C2 in the instance of the OP's thread!
or
4. It IS about a shaver socket?

In Napits Codebreakers a proposed C3 rating is given for 230v circuits supplying equipment in bathrooms or passing through zone 1 without RCD protection. I realise that is only a guide

 

[pc1966]

What type of shaver sockets do you fit that RCD protection would make a difference

A very bad eBay special...

 

[Lister1987]

C2 = 1 thing going wrong with turn into a C1 - How I've taken to looking at it, so would argue C2 for lack of RCD. Non fire rated Down lights in Flat with concrete barrier I would LIM simply because I couldn't verify the integrity of thr compartment formed by the concrete barrier

 

[Taylortwocities]

t even though spots are not on rcd they are 2.25m above floor so fall within zone 2.

Ceiling height puts the downlights out of any bathroom zone. They are not in zone 2.
C3,and that’s for the cr@p wiring.