Fire Alarm Requirements In A Dental Practice

[Dru]

Does anybody know if a full fire alarm system is required in a dental practice?

I am of the understanding that due to the fact that staff are to be employed, a full system with call points and sounders and beacons needs to be installed.

The client has argued that due it being under 100m square that a full system isn't required and just smoke alarms will suffice.

The building is 5.5m x 16m in total and split up into 7 rooms.

Any ideas?

 

[Sintra]

Who is responsible for carrying out the fire risk assessment. You, the client or a third party specialist.

 

[Dru]

Personally I would say the client needs to speak to the local fire authority who should do the risk assessment.

As an electrian it's definitely not my responsibility.

 

[ian.settle1]

Personally I would say the client needs to speak to the local fire authority who should do the risk assessment.

As an electrian it's definitely not my responsibility.

Not anymore the law has changed it is no longer down to the local fire authority but the occupier/owner of the building to carry out

 

[Rockingit]

Not anymore the law has changed it is no longer down to the local fire authority but the occupier/owner of the building to carry out

Unless it's licensed, of course.

 

[ian.settle1]

The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/pdfs/uksi_20051541_en.pdf

 

[UNG]

Unless it's licensed, of course.

The Regulatory Reform ( Fire Safety ) Order changed that as it is the local authority fire officers who are the enforcement officers now. It's down to the premises owner to produce the fire risk assessment or employ a consultant to produce one and also maintain adequate records if these are not in order when the local fire safety visits he has a number of enforcement options he can take against the premises owners

 

[Rockingit]

The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/pdfs/uksi_20051541_en.pdf

The Regulatory Reform ( Fire Safety ) Order changed that as it is the local authority fire officers who are the enforcement officers now. It's down to the premises owner to produce the fire risk assessment or employ a consultant to produce one and also maintain adequate records if these are not in order when the local fire safety visits he has a number of enforcement options he can take against the premises owners

Well, every day's a school day! It's madness - things like this change (some time ago, too) and we get to find out by chinese whispers. I've now no idea as to what does and doesn't still apply to places of entertainment, and my guess is that some very expensive books on the subject sat on my shelves are now probably only fit for the fire.

And, it's madness too, for licensed premises. You cannot have the same person responsible for risk assessing fire and safety that is also the same person who hires the thug bouncers to kick all the punters out at 4am and is also the same person trying to make the place as cheaply run as possible in order to buy more coke and hire more girls.

 

[Richie62]

Dru, if you contact your local Fire and Rescue ( I presume West Mids Headquarters) and ask to speak to the Fire Safety Dept they will give you all the free advice you want and make it simple to understand and if you request they will carry out a visit for you. Up to 2005 before the act then things were nice and simple but now Fire Safety and the workplace is quite complicated and falls a lot under self legislation and Risk Assessments, to the point that Fire Services now have dedicated teams. contact Fire HQ and they will help you out. Sorry I cant give you much more info

 

[UNG]

And, it's madness too, for licensed premises. You cannot have the same person responsible for risk assessing fire and safety that is also the same person who hires the thug bouncers to kick all the punters out at 4am and is also the same person trying to make the place as cheaply run as possible in order to buy more coke and hire more girls.

The penalties for failing to comply range from a fine to a custodial sentence so there can be a bit of an incentive to comply

Dru, if you contact your local Fire and Rescue ( I presume West Mids Headquarters) and ask to speak to the Fire Safety Dept they will give you all the free advice you want and make it simple to understand and if you request they will carry out a visit for you. Up to 2005 before the act then things were nice and simple but now Fire Safety and the workplace is quite complicated and falls a lot under self legislation and Risk Assessments, to the point that Fire Services now have dedicated teams. contact Fire HQ and they will help you out. Sorry I cant give you much more info

The fire brigade don't tend to offer specific advice other than what they put on their websites since the introduction of the RRO as giving specific advice could create a conflict of interest for them when they have to enforce the legislation

 

[tazz]

The problem here is we are taking abaut fire safety and fire risk assessments....and they include a lot more than just a fire alarm system.
Problem is as stated, the owner or company is responsible for their own risk assessment of the premises. But the local authority are legally responsible not to issue a HMO or Liquor licence, being a public or rented building, unless the premises meets their minimum fire risk assessment. This could be number of fire exits, gas shutdown etc Now for a solo trader, who has premises, but is not directly involved with a open public building, like shop keeper , dentist...the risk assessment falls on him, If he states he wants battery operated smoke sensors, then all you can do is advise. Then technically he is then responsible for the design, imo would always state the name of person or company and and any variation from the BS on the design certification.

 

[Richie62]

As Taz has mentioned we are talking more than just a fire alarm and there are several other factor, i.e. has planning been submitted for the premises for as a change of use with the LA, number of floors, number of staff and total amount of people on the premises, any hazardous stored and the size of the building and travel distances and the list goes on, but if its just a simple upgrade then as long as the owner is deemed competent and the premises come under the RRO 2005, they can carry out a full Risk and HSE assessment with the relevant emergency signage and FR doors, and FF equipment (but even that is starting to be thought of as is it necessary because it encourages tacking the fire rather than evacuation and protection comes with the FR doors). A basic smoke/heat detection is all that is required, Ultimately the BUCK STOPS with the owner. As I said before the RRO came in then it was quite a straight forward thing and something I used to be up to speed with but now our Fire Safety Dept has grown and its now a specialist role within the F&RS and I just deal with domestic but if I am inspecting a business then I just refer if there are serious concerns or complicated. Also some Brigades are happy giving advice but others maybe due to financial restrains or perception of the law or they are just awkward, may not help.

 

[UNG]

As Taz has mentioned we are talking more than just a fire alarm and there are several other factor, i.e. has planning been submitted for the premises for as a change of use with the LA, number of floors, number of staff and total amount of people on the premises, any hazardous stored and the size of the building and travel distances and the list goes on, but if its just a simple upgrade then as long as the owner is deemed competent and the premises come under the RRO 2005, they can carry out a full Risk and HSE assessment with the relevant emergency signage and FR doors, and FF equipment (but even that is starting to be thought of as is it necessary because it encourages tacking the fire rather than evacuation and protection comes with the FR doors). A basic smoke/heat detection is all that is required, Ultimately the BUCK STOPS with the owner. As I said before the RRO came in then it was quite a straight forward thing and something I used to be up to speed with but now our Fire Safety Dept has grown and its now a specialist role within the F&RS and I just deal with domestic but if I am inspecting a business then I just refer if there are serious concerns or complicated. Also some Brigades are happy giving advice but others maybe due to financial restrains or perception of the law or they are just awkward, may not help.

Since the introduction of the RRO the fire brigades fire safety departments role in a lot of cases has changed from advisor to enforcer while their reluctance to give advice may seem awkward and sometimes obstructive if enforcement action is needed their position could be compromised if they have given advice and then subsequently have to prosecute it's a similar situation to what the HSE have when it comes to advice and prosecution

With regard to fighting fire equipment and fighting a fire it is easy for someone to get out of their depth and not see the risks they are exposing themselves to even with appropriate training, the equipment could also be used as a weapon which compromises staff safety in some premises

 

[Lister1987]

Whichever party can provide evidence that can defend them in court should things go ---- up, they are the party that is correct.

Me? I'd get a copy of the business COSHH Assessment, Risk Assessment and floor plans and put myself in the shoes of a sensible person, questions I would be asking;

1. Is a full integrated system needed (interlinked smokes/heats/sounders)
2. Is there need for MCPs
3. If an incident were to occur away from the main occupied area, could the alarms be heard everywhere? - Manual handbell/triangle being heard up 3 storeys, through X amount of firedoors.
4. Does the premises do "bare minimum" in terms of equipment to tackle a fire (no more than 30m in open space to reach a suitable type extinguisher iirc).
5. Are there areas of increased risk (Cylinder storage, Radiography etc)

Make a suitable enough case to prove need and the rest is on the owner.

Converse with local authority and professional/governing body - Local health umbrella (can bet they'll have minimum requirements for premises offering thier services), Local authority (I would expect medical premises to require some form of license to operate (given equipment/drugs used/stored).

Get in touch with fire prevention providers (Chubb, Kiddie Thorn, ADT etc as they el have a wealth of knowledge and better understanding of FRO & how it applies to various business types and settings

 

[Darkwood]

Whichever party can provide evidence that can defend them in court should things go ---- up, they are the party that is correct.

Me? I'd get a copy of the business COSHH Assessment, Risk Assessment and floor plans and put myself in the shoes of a sensible person, questions I would be asking;

1. Is a full integrated system needed (interlinked smokes/heats/sounders)
2. Is there need for MCPs
3. If an incident were to occur away from the main occupied area, could the alarms be heard everywhere? - Manual handbell/triangle being heard up 3 storeys, through X amount of firedoors.
4. Does the premises do "bare minimum" in terms of equipment to tackle a fire (no more than 30m in open space to reach a suitable type extinguisher iirc).
5. Are there areas of increased risk (Cylinder storage, Radiography etc)

Make a suitable enough case to prove need and the rest is on the owner.

Converse with local authority and professional/governing body - Local health umbrella (can bet they'll have minimum requirements for premises offering thier services), Local authority (I would expect medical premises to require some form of license to operate (given equipment/drugs used/stored).

Get in touch with fire prevention providers (Chubb, Kiddie Thorn, ADT etc as they el have a wealth of knowledge and better understanding of FRO & how it applies to various business types and settings

Thank You for your input to the thread but take note of the time stamp on the posts, this is a 6 yrs old thread and regulations and guidelines may have changed over that period which they indeed have, so advise given at that time may seem wrong to advise given now in reflection... I will therefore close the thread simply based on the regulatory differences over that time period which can appear confusion to advice offered across that time span.