Generation Meter in the Loft - Really

[SRE]

We had our generation meter read a couple of weeks ago and I was surprised that he was doing a risk assessment on accessing the generation meter for future reference. When I asked him about it he said some were in the loft and lots in completely inaccessible places so they were collating data so they had the required equipment. Sensible - except I understood that Building Regulations required the generation meter be installed next to the consumer unit for easy access by the customer.

Today I read a comment about a big rent a roof company where the meter reader arrived and wanted access - to their loft! The answer from the company indicated it was standard practice.

So, have I been wrong with the regs all of this time, or wrong to stick to the regs when no=one else seems to bother about it. How much easier it must be to put it in the loft!

 

[7029 dave]

Don't know much about new generation, but yes when Im on my rounds a few have been up in the loft, when I asked the customer why it was there, he said because that's where I want it mate!! lol, fair enough,keep putting them next to cu:smile5:.

 

[SolarCity]

We installed one in a loft a couple of years ago. Customer didn't want it anywhere else.

 

[TedM]

MCS has had guidance for generation meters since 2010:

4. Position of meter
The meter shall be fitted to a vertical surface and be placed in a position so that the
register can easily be read by the customer without requiring the use of any
equipment such as tools, ladders or a torch. Ideally the meter should be positioned
adjacent to the consumer unit.

http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/images/MCS_Metering_Guidance_v1.0_2010.08.27.pdf

If I was to inspect an installation and found that the meter did not meet this criteria I would consider the installation was not MCS compliant. In a loft that can be accessed without need of a ladder and has built-in lighting so that a torch is not needed would be OK.

The customer can have the meter wherever they want it - unless they also want the FIT payments.

 

[SRE]

Thanks Ted, knew I could rely on you

 

[BruceB]

You are a hard man Ted!

MCS do not help themselves by using the word guidance in the document title and then issuing instructions in it. Guidance would normally be taken to imply some discretion. And no doubt someone would debate whether the shall in that context was an instruction or the future tense.

 

[TedM]

You are a hard man Ted!

I know, it's bizarre, I never used to be. I can only attribute it to recently turning 60. :smile5:

But I agree - shall should be replaced with must in all appropriate DECC/OFGEM/MCS/RECC documents for clarity.

 

[Gavin A]

We'll install meters in the garage, by the suppliers meter, by the consumer unit etc. but as far as I know we've never installed in the loft. Oh actually maybe once, but that was a walk in full height side loft

I see how the rent a roof mob have been throwing them in so fast though if they've been going in with made up boards with the meters, isolators etc in them..... ahhh, and now I see how they've been getting away with wiring them in to the immersion circuit, as I've heard tell has been going on. I couldn't work out how they could do that with the metering arrangements, now I understand, and they won't be bothered about losses in the undersized cable on the way down because it's metered in the loft.

tbf, if it's rent a roof then it will probably be a GSM enabled meter, so sending someone round to read it is a bit redundant really, or should be.

 

[solarsavings]

Belated happy birthday Ted.

 

[Worcester]

I know, it's bizarre, I never used to be. I can only attribute it to recently turning 60. :smile5:

But I agree - shall should be replaced with must in all appropriate DECC/OFGEM/MCS/RECC documents for clarity.

Hi TedM, in legalese terms Shall = Must, - back in the good ol' days when construction contract law was one of my specialities, we always used to say 'The contractor shall' and 'The engineer may' meaning that the contractor had no discretion what to do, and the engineer could choose wether to implement that requirement / clause if they wanted to (Engineer as in the person running the contract - usually the 'Resident Engineer')

 

[TedM]

Shall is pretty much considered 'old-fashioned' now in legal circles and its further use is discouraged (see below) and I had a similar argument with a planning inspector about this 18 months ago regarding whether shall or must should be used in a planning condition that was to be enacted as a Development Consent Order (which is a Statutory Instrument). He took my point and the final version uses must where I wanted it (I sometimes like to think of it as a little time-bomb waiting to go off.).

The current UK legislation drafting guidelines say:

shall
2.1.68 OPC policy is to minimise the use of the legislative shall.

2.1.69 There are various alternatives to shall which can be used, depending on context
- must in the context of obligations (although is to be and it is the duty of may also be appropriate alternatives in certain contexts);
- use of the present tense in provisions about application, effect, extent or commencement;
- is amended as follows in provisions introducing a series of amendments;
- is repealed in the context of free-standing repeals;
- is to be in the context of provisions relating to statutory instruments (and, if appropriate, may not as an alternative to shall not).

2.1.70 A reason for using shall might be where the text is being inserted into an Act that already uses shall.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/265753/OPC_Drafting_Guidance_Dec_2013.pdf

And see http://ucrel.lancs.ac.uk/publications/CL2003/CL2001 conference/papers/foley.pdf for a fairly full discussion of the principles if you are interested.

 

[oldsalty]

Hi guys, trying to set up something to monitor PV generation in a tenanted house where they have no wi-fi and also no phone line. Currently generation meter is under stairs in cupboard next to CU with no mobile phone signal so intellymodem etc probably won't work (VERY expensive to take risk of buying one to find it won't talk to the outside world). House is 1995 vintage marina house with gas and leccy meters in white boxes on outside wall. Is it feasible (legally and technically?) to move the meter from under the stairs to the leccy meter box on the outside wall so we can access the meter without having to go into the house? The boxes are on the other side of the house, away from the CU.

 

[BruceB]

A bit off topic but this is the still current 'guidance' from my previous life, which I work to unless there is a good reason not to.

Orders, intentions and suggested action
40. In DW, some words and phrases have specific meanings and are used to express
orders, intentions or suggested action:
a. ‘Is to’ and ‘are to’. The phrases ‘is to’ and ‘are to’ convey direct orders.
b. ‘Shall’ and ‘will’. Phrases with ‘shall’ or ‘will’ show that something will
happen in the future, but do not convey an order. However, in legal contexts, there
is a clear difference between ‘shall’ and ‘will’, so interpret the meaning in context.
c. ‘Should’. ‘Should’, in directives or instructions, expresses the requirement of
a higher authority but leaves some discretion to the recipient.
d. ‘Intend’. ‘Intend’ identifies an action which will be carried out unless
countermanded by a higher authority.
e. ‘Propose’. ‘Propose’ suggests a course of action which will not be carried out
unless approved by higher authority.
f. ‘Request’. ‘Request’, when used by a senior to a junior (or by a higher to a
lower formation), is a polite way of giving, and should be interpreted as, an order.

 

[Sunshine777]

Hi guys, trying to set up something to monitor PV generation in a tenanted house where they have no wi-fi and also no phone line. Currently generation meter is under stairs in cupboard next to CU with no mobile phone signal so intellymodem etc probably won't work (VERY expensive to take risk of buying one to find it won't talk to the outside world). House is 1995 vintage marina house with gas and leccy meters in white boxes on outside wall. Is it feasible (legally and technically?) to move the meter from under the stairs to the leccy meter box on the outside wall so we can access the meter without having to go into the house? The boxes are on the other side of the house, away from the CU.

The PV system is probably connected to the house wiring at the CU making a generation meter at the meter box a non starter?

 

[oldsalty]

The PV system is probably connected to the house wiring at the CU making a generation meter at the meter box a non starter?

Many thanks for that, I knew it sounded too good to be true. Ah well, back to the drawing board!

 

[MCS Renewables]

We have a picture of this meter on our Renewable Rescue web site ...
Install was by the Save Energy Group.

http://www.renewablerescue.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/gallery/15.jpg

It is in the meter cupboard !!

 

[oldsalty]

We have a picture of this meter on our Renewable Rescue web site ...
Install was by the Save Energy Group.

http://www.renewablerescue.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/gallery/15.jpg

It is in the meter cupboard !!

Easy if the CU is also in the meter cupboard?

 

[MCS Renewables]

Better in the loft than mounted on its side with unprotected singles exposed as per the picture IMO.

 

[puddy]

We'll install meters in the garage, by the suppliers meter, by the consumer unit

I see how the rent a roof mob have been throwing them in so fast though if they've been going in with made up boards with the meters, isolators etc in them..... ahhh, and now I see how they've been getting away with wiring them in to the immersion circuit, as I've heard probably be a GSM enabled meter, so sending someone round to read it is a bit redundant really, or should be.

Homesun did my installation correctly.

Gavin why do you hate rent a roof companies so much?