Good news!

[D Skelton]

I've been invited by Mr Betts' office to attend Parliament on the 6th to sit on the panel at the next committee meeting enquiring into the effectiveness of self certification schemes!

I hope Parliamentary privileges extend to me, I am known for being rather outspoken!

 

[ipf]

DIY Dave working on his own home isn't and never has been the problem The problem lies solely with these fast track training centres and the scam providers allowing under trained, under qualified and inexperienced people to operate/practice as an electrician in the domestic sector and beyond!!


Don't get side tracked, stick to the main points that you feel strongly about, like the 17 Day/electrical trainee
training centres and the scheme providers that allow these people to legally operate. The idea of a national licensing requirement would in a stroke rectify the vast majority of the main problems of these parasitic organisations, as well as greatly help in other areas...

The main issue, no doubt.
The requisites to be classed as qualified to carry out electrical work, unattended.

 

[Engineer54]

Stop the homeowner doing bits on his own installation and you wipe out a significant part of the domestic electricians income that stems from all the remedial work they create. Besides you'll never stop the DIY mentality in the UK, it's part and parcel of our culture!! lol!!

Whatever, you'll never in a million years beat the sheds in stopping them selling electrical goods. You'll be on a loser from the very word go, if you go along that route!!

 

[D Skelton]

I'm out of here, I'm about to blow my control fuse!

One thing I'll leave with, have a look at the American system. That's been in place since the 20's.

What, like not allowing anyone to gain a licence as an electrician unless they have been in the trade for at least three years! Seems kinda similar to what I'm calling for?

 

[Engineer54]

Just another note a friend who is a damn good sparky got his Gold card although no apprentiship only 17th edition and 6 years in the trade by virtue of a nice letter from his former boss ????????????

Then something has changed dramatically with the JIB's acceptance and grading requirements, which i doubt very much!!

Personally i think your mate is telling you some pretty big Porky Pies, there!! lol!!

 

[D Skelton]

Stop the homeowner doing bits on his own installation and you wipe out a significant part of the domestic electricians income that stems from all the remedial work they create. Besides you'll never stop the DIY mentality in the UK, it's part and parcel of our culture!! lol!!

Who cares! At the end of the day this is about saving people from death or injury from crappy electrical work, not about ensuring more work for the qualified electrician! Although that would come as a result of 70% of the electrical industry being denied permission to work anyway lol. Seriously though, the first and main issue is about improving safety, not increasing the workload for the qualified electrician.

Whatever, you'll never in a million years beat the sheds in stopping them selling electrical goods. You'll be on a loser from the very word go, if you go along that route!!

You're probably right, but Murdoch asked what I would recommend should I be asked. That is what I would recommend..... Unless, other qualified electricians could convince me otherwise by helping me weigh up the pros and cons of restricting the sale of electrical installation equipment.

Then something has changed dramatically with the JIB's acceptance and grading requirements, which i doubt very much!!

Personally i think your mate is telling you some pretty big Porky Pies, there!! lol!!

Worryingly, I think his mate could be telling the truth! Have you read through the latest edition of the JIB handbook?! lol

 

[D Skelton]

By the way, my intention never has been or ever will be to impose my views on those that are willing to listen. When I am in parliament, along with others, my job as well as theirs will be to present facts. My opinions don't count as fact, but what I hear others say is! The general consensus amongst the people I speak to on a daily basis (electricians, wholesalers, lecturers, training providers, customers etc...) is something I can present as fact. That fact is that the competent persons schemes are not working!

I'm not saying my way is right, I'm saying that there is a way of moving things in the right direction but the only way for us to achieve this is by working together, not arguing amongst ourselves over trivialities.

 

[Engineer54]

You're probably right, but Murdoch asked what I would recommend should I be asked. That is what I would recommend..... Unless, other qualified electricians could convince me otherwise by helping me weigh up the pros and cons of restricting the sale of electrical installation equipment.

Restricting the sale of electrical goods will in it's own right cause knock on effects that will make domestic work even harder to obtain. In fact the price of ''All'' electrical materials will sky rocket, and you'll all be back at wholesalers that will be robbing you blind. The truth of the matter, the Sheds are mainly selling the bulk of electrical wiring materials etc to the trade. (because they are cheaper than a lot of the wholesalers) It's always been a bad idea to ban any goods especially the sale of anything from bona fide shops/outlets etc. The bad or consequences will always follow, to bite you deeply in the arse!! lol!!

 

[D Skelton]

Restricting the sale of electrical goods will in it's own right cause knock on effects that will make domestic work even harder to obtain. In fact the price of ''All'' electrical materials will sky rocket, and you'll all be back at wholesalers that will be robbing you blind. The truth of the matter, the Sheds are mainly selling the bulk of electrical wiring materials etc to the trade. (because they are cheaper than a lot of the wholesalers) It's always been a bad idea to ban any goods especially the sale of anything from bona fide shops/outlets etc. The bad or consequences will always follow, to bite you deeply in the arse!! lol!!

Oh I can definitely see the down side of carrying out such a harsh decision, but it's whether the pros outweigh the cons isn't it. I was speaking to the manager of my wholesaler recently and I asked how their prices would be affected if they were restricted to selling to trade only. His response was more or less "It wouldn't". I could personally see a small rise of say 10-20% as their suppliers prices would rise slightly, but all in all, considering DIYers constitute only 2% of sales at my local branch, I don't think it would be as bad as you think. Also, if you up the cost of training to all who wish to become sparks, some will adopt the attitude of 'Well, I guess being an electrician isn't for me then', a lot however will adopt the attitude of 'Jeez, I've been conning my customers into thinking I'm an electrician for so long now! I haven't got the money to retrain, nor am I prepared to do another job. Screw it, I'll just carry on regardless'!

Guess what, the scourge of the Electrical Trainee hasn't been wiped out, they've just been pushed out of legitimacy.

 

[D Skelton]

It's always been a bad idea to ban any goods especially the sale of anything from bona fide shops/outlets etc. The bad or consequences will always follow, to bite you deeply in the arse!! lol!!

They banned the sale of alcohol to minors. Was that a bad idea? lol

 

[Knobhead]

What, like not allowing anyone to gain a licence as an electrician unless they have been in the trade for at least three years! Seems kinda similar to what I'm calling for?

Stick to one point then. The committee will ignore you if you ramble on about the entire trade.

You should have a pre meeting where each of the delegates decide who asks what. The art in a committee is for each member to get a concise point over. Not a jumble of opinions.

The chair and deputies will just switch off when you go off topic, any pertinent point will go unnoticed.

I’m a past master at ignoring committee decisions. I’d do what I thought was best, but I was seen to be listening.

You need a list of delegates and their e-mail addresses beforehand to get things sorted. Otherwise you will appear a self serving protectionist group of wingers, a bit like the opposition really.

 

[D Skelton]

It's always been a bad idea to ban any goods especially the sale of anything from bona fide shops/outlets etc. The bad or consequences will always follow, to bite you deeply in the arse!! lol!!

They banned the sale of alcohol to minors. Was that a bad idea? lol

Stick to one point then. The committee will ignore you if you ramble on about the entire trade.

I entend to. My points will be soley about the faliures of the competent persons schemes unless asked otherwise. I was just engaging in debate here.

You need a list of delegates and their e-mail addresses beforehand to get things sorted. Otherwise you will appear a self serving protectionist group of wingers, a bit like the opposition really.

Yes, well I already know one personally, I intend to get other attendees details tomorrow.

 

[Knobhead]

I wasn’t been nasty DS.

I attended a company/union annual conference for quite a number of years, the times a perfectly good discussion got derailed was heart breaking.
One convenor got the nickname Rambling Sid Rumpole (Rumpole of the Bailey). He’d set off in fine form following the script we’d agreed. One of the directors would ask him a question and that was it, he was off the tracks all together. If it wasn’t so serious it would have been funny.

All I’m saying is set out an agreed script and stick to it. They will ask for points of clarification, make sure you return to the topic after answering. You will be up against seasoned speakers, they know the all tricks. You may finish up contradicting yourself due to the points they ask.

I watched the last committee meeting. They tied the scams up in knots, they seemed set against them. I hope they’re on you’re side for this session.

 

[Jeffmo65]

I believe I know this person very well and have seen the card

Then something has changed dramatically with the JIB's acceptance and grading requirements, which i doubt very much!!

Personally i think your mate is telling you some pretty big Porky Pies, there!! lol!!

I know this person very well and his background . I have seen the card in question . So it looks like and prooves the jib is also a money makin scam . Sorry if thats burst your bubble my friend . Anyway we digress and yes the main issue is being safe not intelligent enough to pass a few exams . Its about doing a good job , making sure the customers and their family are happy , so they will pass on ur good name to someone else . All it is at the end of the day , if your in business you need to make money . Whats the saying an honest days work for an honest days pay . Just like plumbers and gas fitters mmmmmmm

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

Maybe suggest that the schemes only collect nominal fees for membership but charge for, say proper "competency checks" every two years and the money is paid upfront whether you pass or fail, instead of the membership fee that encourages bad behavior by the scheme.

Could I also kindly suggest that we push to enshrine enshrine in law a requirement to provide a basic "Maintenance Cert" that means a cert is filled in for simple things such changing a light / socket etc that requires a Zs, visual check of bonding / earthing sizes (I'm just thinking out loud here) etc..that way DIY Dave can still operate if they have the required tools.

 

[EoinConway]

Stop the homeowner doing bits on his own installation and you wipe out a significant part of the domestic electricians income that stems from all the remedial work they create. Besides you'll never stop the DIY mentality in the UK, it's part and parcel of our culture!! lol!!

Whatever, you'll never in a million years beat the sheds in stopping them selling electrical goods. You'll be on a loser from the very word go, if you go along that route!!

Agree. Sheds aside, the likes of ourselves, Screwfix & TLC, have all high levels of online Sales. 'YESSS', Neweys, Denmans etc will almost certainly only increase their levels of internet sales in future - very difficult to monitor/restrict who buys from your website and what qualifications they have (if any).

 

[Engineer54]

I know this person very well and his background . I have seen the card in question . So it looks like and prooves the jib is also a money makin scam . Sorry if thats burst your bubble my friend . Anyway we digress and yes the main issue is being safe not intelligent enough to pass a few exams . Its about doing a good job , making sure the customers and their family are happy , so they will pass on ur good name to someone else . All it is at the end of the day , if your in business you need to make money . Whats the saying an honest days work for an honest days pay . Just like plumbers and gas fitters mmmmmmm

I haven't read the latest entry requirements or handbook, ...i do know that there was grandfather rights attached to many of the older sparks for entry purposes but they would not cover your mate, and those older guy's had all been apprenticed, just no AM2 or NVQ's etc. They also tend to want to see original certifications and not copies...

So if what you're saying now, is that electrical trainee's training will get you a JIB Gold Card on the strength of a bosses letter, you may as well kick the JIB into touch now too!! They were at the very least, the last bastion of accredited qualified Electricians and Technicians in the UK!!


To be honest i still don't believe it, we regularly get qualified electricians coming on here moaning like hell that the JIB have only issued them with trainee cards because they don't hold an AM2 certificate or something daft like that and with a company letter. So how a guy that only has his 17 th cert, and jack all else get's issued a Gold Card, just doesn't ring to me. Sure it's not a fake one, there were a spate of those things going round at one time??

 

[Engineer54]

Agree. Sheds aside, the likes of ourselves, Screwfix & TLC, have all high levels of online Sales. 'YESSS', Neweys, Denmans etc will almost certainly only increase their levels of internet sales in future - very difficult to monitor/restrict who buys from your website and what qualifications they have (if any).

Yep, that's another aspect when trying to restrict the sale of electrical materials!! lol!! Your never going to beat those Sheds and other big retailers they have far too much clout where it matters!!

When you start down the electrical police route, you're just asking for a can of worms to open up!! The fact is as i've pointed out many times, the general public owe domestic jobbing electricians nothing. We need to sort out our side electrical industry before having a pop at the DIYers, many of which have a better understanding of electrical installation work than the 5 week chancer's that are out there!!


The first and by far the most important step forward, is the formation of a government backed National Register of Qualified electricians, with the teeth to police the system. That will get rid of any excuse for scam providers to be required for domestic installations, and stop the training providers inappropriately flooding the industry with wannabe electricians under the cloak of this made up title of ''Domestic Installers''!! No other mainstream country in the world has such lowly trained people, in fact many of the European countries especially Germany and France, actively promote and finance in-depth training via apprentice styled systems...

 

[killy bing]

Not too sure if my view will be welcomed but us in the heating industry are calling for the same thing with oil as oftec is a joke.

we have different risks, ours is explosions and carbon monoxide generally.
with gas and lpg you cant smell when an appliance is burning incorrectly and producing co
however with oil the appliance stinks to high hell as a by product, because of that people realise something is wrong and less people die from oil appliances.
So any tool can go in a three day course and call themselves an oftec technician.

when it comes down to policing any industry, no one takes notice till people start dying.

as horrible as it is to say, best thing for your industry is to have a newly qualified fast tracker burn down a building with a young family with kids in it.
horrible but no one in power wants the extra effort of changing anything unless it makes them look like a hero....

 

[D Skelton]

You haven't answered my point Eng. It's not just the DIYer I'm having a pop at, it's the Electrical Trainee that will be able to continue working without upskilling.

 

[Engineer54]

You haven't answered my point Eng. It's not just the DIYer I'm having a pop at, it's the Electrical Trainee that will be able to continue working without upskilling.

Not legally!! That's the main point. Anyone stupid enough to blatantly continue working outside of the law is something that no-one but the legal authorities can do anything about.

Obviously, there will be a need to give all those under trained and under qualified/inexperienced people a period of time to gain the minimal acceptance criteria, but after that time has expired, they will be out of any official recognition and at the mercy of the legal system!! lol!!

 

[Jeffmo65]

Engineer 54 . Trust me when I say this guy attained a gold card from JIB . I would not even mention it if it wasn't fact . He is however a very competent electrician both practically and theoretically . Please , I do not wish to antagonise anybody on this forum as its a great site .However some things aren't always as black and white as we think . Obviously the JIB considered this particular individual to have enough experience and knowledge to warrant one of these useless cards

 

[Engineer54]

For my own piece of mind, i want to continue to believe that at least the JIB don't give gold cards to electrical trainee's with a few years experience under their belt and jack all else!!

From my admittedly limited understanding of how the JIB grading system works, things tend to be very black & white with the JIB, it's likened to robotic step by step actions that all need to be in place for anything to be issued. More often than not, far lower grades are given than those being applied for, sometimes on the most trivial of basises... I wouldn't call them particularly useless cards either, without one you don't get to work (electrician) on any of the bigger construction projects in the UK, or a good number of smaller projects.

So let's agree to disagree on this one, at least it'll still give me some semblance of hope for the UK's
electrical industry!! lol!!

 

[Jeffmo65]

For my own piece of mind, i want to continue to believe that at least the JIB don't give gold cards to electrical trainee's with a few years experience under their belt and jack all else!!

From my admittedly limited understanding of how the JIB grading system works, things tend to be very black & white with the JIB, it's likened to robotic step by step actions that all need to be in place for anything to be issued. More often than not, far lower grades are given than those being applied for, sometimes on the most trivial of basises... I wouldn't call them particularly useless cards either, without one you don't get to work (electrician) on any of the bigger construction projects in the UK, or a good number of smaller projects.

So let's agree to disagree on this one, at least it'll still give me some semblance of hope for the UK's
electrical industry!! lol!!

Ok buddy . Good conversation though . Maybe useless was a bit harsh but I have worked on some quite large sites and never being asked for the holy grail , but I admit its good to have just in case

 

[Mark P]

You can find it on the DCLG website, follow the links for investigation into Building Regs and Part P. You can watch the whole session of NIC, ECA, Napit and Certsure being grilled if you're so inclined. MARVEL at how they sound like advertisers from the 1980s; WATCH in awe as they evade questions; TREMBLE at the prospect of them running anything let alone a single scheme; BE HORRIFIED that these people are "leading" speakers in the industry.

As a fellow invitee, Mr Skelton, I look forward to seeing you there and we will undress their emperor's clothing and show them for what they are!

 

[Badged01]

I look forward to seeing you there and we will undress their emperor's clothing and show them for what they are!

Good luck! But be careful, these "schemes" etc .... didnt get to where they are today without being very cunning, crafty and able to manipulate things to what they want!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Good luck! But be careful, these "schemes" etc .... didnt get to where they are today without being very cunning, crafty and able to manipulate things to what they want!

Sounds like you've just written the design brief for politicians.

 

[Knobhead]

I didn’t get where I am today by …… CJ in the Rise and Fall of Reginald Perrin.

 

[D Skelton]

Not legally!! That's the main point. Anyone stupid enough to blatantly continue working outside of the law is something that no-one but the legal authorities can do anything about.

And how do you propose the authorities deal with these 'criminals'? lol. Lock em up? C'mon, get real. Why be reactive when you can be proactive!

 

[Knobhead]

And how do you propose the authorities deal with these 'criminals'? lol. Lock em up? C'mon, get real. Why be reactive when you can be proactive!

A hefty fine is all we can hope for. But as to stopping them, Canute stood more chance.

If things do change the press needs to be on side. Reporting in local papers the cowboys caught. The first few in court will drive a lot of the cowboys out.

But and this is a big but. If the registered electricians start driving the prices up too quickly, the press will turn against you. It’s going to take years to sort out the current mess so it has to be taken gently.

The bit that’s getting me annoyed is the IET trumpeting they uphold the regulations while at the same time redefining competent to taught in amendment 3. Look up the definitions in the OED.
My subscription to the IET is due, I’m thinking of telling them to shove it.

 

[ipf]

A hefty fine is all we can hope for. But as to stopping them, Canute stood more chance.

If things do change the press needs to be on side. Reporting in local papers the cowboys caught. The first few in court will drive a lot of the cowboys out.

But and this is a big but. If the registered electricians start driving the prices up too quickly, the press will turn against you. It’s going to take years to sort out the current mess so it has to be taken gently.

The bit that’s getting me annoyed is the IET trumpeting they uphold the regulations while at the same time redefining competent to taught in amendment 3. Look up the definitions in the OED.
My subscription to the IET is due, I’m thinking of telling them to shove it.

When ''electricians'' are being employed for under £10 an hour, as is obviously the case in some situations, bo££ox to the press. Many of these are nothing more than labourers, being paid as such, underpricing and undermining the trade with sinking standards