UK Inspection Report, Electric Shower, Merlin Gerin and Schneider MCBs

[Iain Stewart]

Hello,
We live in an old stone built ground floor flat, built in the 1880s. Obviously the consumer unit and cabling has been updated a number of times over the years by previous owners. One being the Local Authority who owned the property back in the 1960s -70s.

We have lived here for 25 years and decided to have an electrical inspection carried out by a local Electrician. He is a good honest guy, fully trained and qualified and a member of quite a few registered bodies. His report has shown only a couple of problem areas that should be addressed. Separate circuits for appliances, swapping circuits to the protected side of the consumer unit, updating sockets and light switches. He says although our consumer unit is older and the cabling is older there is no need change it or renew at this time but it is something we should think about for the future. He did have limited knowledge with regard to our particular make/model of consumer unit. (Young guy probably not born when our consumer unit was installed)

Now, our plan is to sell up in the new year and realising that this would be a huge upheaval and at a hefty cost we have decided to not take on the task.
However, we have hit a juncture. Our plumbing is such that we have only ever had an Electric Shower.
We wish to maintain this arrangement but have decided to upgrade the shower to a more powerful 10.5Kw unit as the old 7.5Kw shower has packed in and as you have no doubt guessed, this will involve a cable and MCB upgrade.

Existing arrangement is; distance from consumer unit to shower, 25m. Cabling 6mm², under floor in solemn space and in plaster for the last 1m. 32amp MCB on RCD protected circuit.
Our fuse box is an Merlin Gerin, (photos attached).

My questions are; (bearing in mind we are not changing the consumer unit and only wish to change the cabling and MCB for this one circuit),
Q1, would the Merlin Gerin consumer unit be able to be upgraded with a modern Schneider Acti9 45 amp MCB in place of the Multi9 MCB.
Q2, Are our current Multi9 MCBs a C-curve? I'm not sure if the writing on the current MCBs indicate the Curve type.
Q3, Would the Schneider replacement MCBs need to be a C-Curve or B-Curve type in whichever case?
Q4, Rather than a consumer unit upgrade, could we actually just update all the MCBs in the consumer unit this way?
Q4, Should we upgrade all the MCBs to RCBOs instead. (Assuming there is room in the consumer unit for such an upgrade as I understand they are quite large in comparison).

From my internet of things investigation... I gather that Merlin Gerin are no longer in manufacture and subsequently that the proper replacement for Multi9 would be Schneider Acti9. Would this be the correct information?

Any good advice appreciated for 3 dirty children and a smelly wife... I've always been a clean guy...

 

[Strima]

Schneider C60H RCBO's will fit that board. Merlin Gerin is now Schneider so only the colours and name changed on their switch gear.

Do not try and get the iC60H range to fit as they will not, only the C60H.

This way you will only need to install a new busbar rather than replace the whole board. I'd go full RCBO.

TBH that board is a very good make and I would be very reluctant to rip it out, unless required all your devices only need to be B type unless you have LED units with high inrush currents and the manufacturers recommend C type or if you have a decent sized welder in the garage.

 

[DPG]

If you are moving out very soon then why bother with the hassle? Stick with a lower power shower unit.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - just my opinion, but why not just replace like for like if you’re moving on?
For the upgrade it sounds like you would need a new cable from the CU to the uprated local isolator and then the new shower. But rather than mess about with the old Consumer Unit I’d probably put in a separate little board - Schneider do a 50A one (as you’ve mentioned them).

 

[Dave OCD]

The odd thing that jumps out at me in the pictures is a relatively new 100a DP isolator which only has the live tail connected through it with the neutral being straight through a SP block. Why would anyone do that ?

 

[DPG]

The odd thing that jumps out at me in the pictures is a relatively new 100a DP isolator which only has the live tail connected through it with the neutral being straight through a SP block. Why would anyone do that ?

Good spot that.

 

[westward10]

What body the electrician belongs to is irrelevant and side tracking this thread. Posts removed.

 

[Dave OCD]

Fair enough

 

[davesparks]

The odd thing that jumps out at me in the pictures is a relatively new 100a DP isolator which only has the live tail connected through it with the neutral being straight through a SP block. Why would anyone do that ?

It's odd to fit a DP isolator when they are only connecting the line, but not unusual for a DNO to fit a single pole isolator in the line only.
Self connect meters with a built in isolator are single pole, and I've seen single pole isolators fitted in seperate enclosures occasionally.

 

[Dave OCD]

Yes I've seen such things too Dave, but in the case of the photos in this thread it just looks odd.

 

[Iain Stewart]

What body the electrician belongs to is irrelevant and side tracking this thread. Posts removed.

Hi I don't understand your comment with regard to side tracking and am I to understand that you have removed my post?
I am a householder not an Electrician. I only mentioned the registered bodies because 100% of the Electricians that I looked up on the internet to do the job for me all advertised that they were registered with some organisation/body or other. Is this not the case for all Electricians? So are you saying that an Electrician registered with one of the following organisations is irrelevant?
BRE Certification Ltd
British Standards Institution
ELECSA Ltd
NAPIT Registration Ltd
NICEIC Group Ltd
SELECT (Scotland)
STROMA
Are there any Electricians you could recommend to me an ordinary family man in the street, not an Electrician, that I should hire to do the job who are not registered with an organisation? How would I know to trust them or their work?
I don't feel like taking a chance where electricity is concerned and would hope that I would get a good fully qualified Electrician. How would I know otherwise?

Thank you.
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[westward10]

None of your posts have been removed. I deemed the questioning of the bodies the electrician belongs to as being irrelevant to your issue.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Hi Dave OCD, the Isolator was fitted by British Gas when we had a new boiler installed. Can you see a problem with it and should I get them back to make amendments?
Thanks

The odd thing that jumps out at me in the pictures is a relatively new 100a DP isolator which only has the live tail connected through it with the neutral being straight through a SP block. Why would anyone do that ?

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None of your posts have been removed. I deemed the questioning of the bodies the electrician belongs to as being irrelevant to your issue.

Thanks for your reply westward10.

My apologies, I thought that you had removed my thread as you are a moderator and you said Posts Removed...
I was not questioning any bodies or their relevance. I merely mentioned that to highlight that in my opinion the local Electrician I asked to do the job for me had advertised these organisations. As it happens I checked the organisations for his registration and he was indeed an approved contractor and that gave me huge confidence in his abilities. As I said, I have no other way of ascertaining his credentials or reliability? Only a man in the street trying to get the best for my family...

Thanks...

 

[westward10]

You haven't seen the removed posts, they were not pertinent to your question they would have sent it off track. None of your posts are a problem.

 

[Iain Stewart]

You haven't seen the removed posts, they were not pertinent to your question they would have sent it off track. None of your posts are a problem.

Ah! I understand... Thank you for looking after my post. I misinterpreted your quote in the first instance... Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year...

 

[davesparks]

Hello,
He is a good honest guy, fully trained and qualified and a member of quite a few registered bodies.
He says although our consumer unit is older and the cabling is older there is no need change it or renew at this time but it is something we should think about for the future. He did have limited knowledge with regard to our particular make/model of consumer unit. (Young guy probably not born when our consumer unit was installed)

Existing arrangement is; distance from consumer unit to shower, 25m. Cabling 6mm², under floor in solemn space and in plaster for the last 1m. 32amp MCB on RCD protected circuit.
Our fuse box is an Merlin Gerin, (photos attached).

My questions are; (bearing in mind we are not changing the consumer unit and only wish to change the cabling and MCB for this one circuit),
Q1, would the Merlin Gerin consumer unit be able to be upgraded with a modern Schneider Acti9 45 amp MCB in place of the Multi9 MCB.
Q2, Are our current Multi9 MCBs a C-curve? I'm not sure if the writing on the current MCBs indicate the Curve type.
Q3, Would the Schneider replacement MCBs need to be a C-Curve or B-Curve type in whichever case?
Q4, Rather than a consumer unit upgrade, could we actually just update all the MCBs in the consumer unit this way?
Q4, Should we upgrade all the MCBs to RCBOs instead. (Assuming there is room in the consumer unit for such an upgrade as I understand they are quite large in comparison).

From my internet of things investigation... I gather that Merlin Gerin are no longer in manufacture and subsequently that the proper replacement for Multi9 would be Schneider Acti9. Would this be the correct information?

I would say there is no point replacing that consumer unit, short term or long term, it is a good quality board designed primarily for commercial/industrial use rather than domestic and any modern domestic CU would be a step backwards in my opinion.
The electrician not being familiar with that CU is may be due to them primarily working in the domestic sector rather than commercial or industrial.

Schneider have bought Merlin Gerin but are still manufacturing compatible protective devices. To bring it up to full compliance with current regulations you would need to change the non-RCD ways to RCBO's.
Whilst you can buy new compatible protective devices there is still a massive amount of the older type out there, mostly second hand or some new old stock.

The MCB's you have use an older labelling system than the current B, C, D, the but that says type 2 denotes the tripping curve.

 

[freddo]

Those are nice consumer units. I like the 'upside down' configuration of the busbar.

 

[Iain Stewart]

I would say there is no point replacing that consumer unit, short term or long term, it is a good quality board designed primarily for commercial/industrial use rather than domestic and any modern domestic CU would be a step backwards in my opinion.
The electrician not being familiar with that CU is may be due to them primarily working in the domestic sector rather than commercial or industrial.

Schneider have bought Merlin Gerin but are still manufacturing compatible protective devices. To bring it up to full compliance with current regulations you would need to change the non-RCD ways to RCBO's.
Whilst you can buy new compatible protective devices there is still a massive amount of the older type out there, mostly second hand or some new old stock.

The MCB's you have use an older labelling system than the current B, C, D, the but that says type 2 denotes the tripping curve.

Thank you for your reply davesparks.

That sounds very good advice to me and I am delighted to hear that the CU is of good quality.
I think I will try to source the original MCBs from the internet and ask my Electrician to do the job for me. He quoted me a very reasonable £250 labour for the original work of running another cable to my kitchen, (both the oven and hob are on the same cable and have a dual outlet plate in the kitchen), he recommends that needs to be changed. Also to swap the cooker circuit to a lower amperage MCB and move it to the RCD protected ways... I guess I would try to source three original MCBs for him to fit. He would no doubt supply everything else, cables, sockets and light switches etc... Should I source a 45amp MCB for the shower and, am I right in thinking that I should get 2 x 30 amp MCBs for both separate oven and hob circuits?

Thank you...

 

[davesparks]

He quoted me a very reasonable £250 labour for the original work of running another cable to my kitchen, (both the oven and hob are on the same cable and have a dual outlet plate in the kitchen), he recommends that needs to be changed.

Reasonable? I'd say its very unreasonable to take what sounds like a perfectly compliant and safe installation and carry out unnecessary work.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Thanks to all for your replies. Collectively I have had some great advice and gained some good knowledge with regards to my CU and the best course of action to take...
Thanks again and I wish you all a Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year!
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Reasonable? I'd say its very unreasonable to take what sounds like a perfectly compliant and safe installation and carry out unnecessary work.

No, I will ask him to do only the remedial work. I'm sure he would be asking a lot more for a 4 bedroom, 1 sitting room, 1 bathroom, 1 cloakroom and a kitchen rewire with a new consumer unit. He said half a days labour of £250 for the remedial work and in my experience over the years with various Electricians in Edinburgh, that is a good price.
It will no doubt be extra for the shower that I don't mind paying. It will probably come in around £1000 that would be fine for me...

 

[davesparks]

No, I will ask him to do only the remedial work.

That's my point, having the hob and oven on the same circuit is fully compliant with the current regulations. Suggesting that there is any need for them to be on seperate circuits is incorrect and they are ripping you off.
They may not be deliberately ripping you off, it could be through a genuine lack of knowledge of the regulations, but either way it is wrong.

There are far too many electricians who have not properly read and understood the changes in the regulations and are still working to previous editions of the regulations. This is often unintentional and they are just falling back on what they were taught as an apprentice.

 

[Iain Stewart]

I briefly spotted an accusation there in a post with regard to doing the job myself!
I wish I could that would save me a fortune... I will ask my Electrician if he will source the original MCBs but I thought I would try to make the whole thing easier... I am a researcher and the IT/internet thing is a breeze for me... I'm not so sure about the person with the doubts/accusations but hey ho! Were all entitled to our opinions right or wrong I suppose...

My wife is a registered childminder with the Care Commission. This is the reason we needed the;

DOMESTIC ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION CONDITION REPORT
Issued in accordance with British Standard BS 7671 - Requirements for Electrical Installations,
...in the first place. Safety first!

Maybe the person with the comments is just a DIYer and that's what they would do.
Also it's our house and our CU and our MCBs so I am entitled to find out as much information about them as possible. Just in case I come across the type of rip-off person who would make such comments as self installation and probably do the job themselves...

Thanks again...
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That's my point, having the hob and oven on the same circuit is fully compliant with the current regulations. Suggesting that there is any need for them to be on seperate circuits is incorrect and they are ripping you off.
They may not be deliberately ripping you off, it could be through a genuine lack of knowledge of the regulations, but either way it is wrong.

There are far too many electricians who have not properly read and understood the changes in the regulations and are still working to previous editions of the regulations. This is often unintentional and they are just falling back on what they were taught as an apprentice.

Interesting, I will get clarification on this from my local authority building services dept...
The guy seems genuine to me and we like him a lot... But you never know! He is young and perhaps has not fully understood the regulations as you say.
Thanks for the great advice...

 

[davesparks]

Interesting, I will get clarification on this from my local authority building services dept...
The guy seems genuine to me and we like him a lot... But you never know! He is young and perhaps has not fully understood the regulations as you say.
Thanks for the great advice...

Local authoritys generally don't have a clue about the wiring regulations as it is nothing to do with them.

Unfortunately you have to trust the electrician you hire, or spend a few years learning the trade yourself.

Ask the electrucian to show you the actual regulation which they believe this does not comply with. The book they will show you is BS7671 'The 18th edition IET wiring regulations' (or words to that effect, I can't remember the exact wording but the BS number is right) which is an A4 size book with a blue cover (any other colour is a previous version which is not current).
They may also show you the on site guide which is an A5 size ring bound book with a blue and white cover. This is an official guide to regulations.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Local authoritys generally don't have a clue about the wiring regulations as it is nothing to do with them.

Unfortunately you have to trust the electrician you hire, or spend a few years learning the trade yourself.

Ask the electrucian to show you the actual regulation which they believe this does not comply with. The book they will show you is BS7671 'The 18th edition IET wiring regulations' (or words to that effect, I can't remember the exact wording but the BS number is right) which is an A4 size book with a blue cover (any other colour is a previous version which is not current).
They may also show you the on site guide which is an A5 size ring bound book with a blue and white cover. This is an official guide to regulations.

Here is a snapshot of section 7 of the report I may have got my information wrong... What are your thoughts please?

 

[Strima]

Those are all C3s and are only recommendations, you should have received a satisfactory report and no remedial works are required.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Those are all C3s and are only recommendations, you should have received a satisfactory report and no remedial works are required.

Yes understood , but I would like the house to be 100% goodly as far as Electrical is concerned. I am unsure as to the real-time effect of the recommendations...
What would you recommend?

 

[freddo]

I wouldn't be too worried about any of the defects listed there. Carrying out the work suggested should improve the installation, but nothing is required to be done. The certificate should state the installation is in a satisfactory condition.

 

[Midwest]

If you are moving out very soon then why bother with the hassle? Stick with a lower power shower unit.

Thats the best bit of advice you've been given (including the #4 @Wilko, which won't multi post here?). Unless anything is dangerous, and that appears not to be, I wouldn't be doing anything if you are moving soon. Ask an estate agent. I recently moved, and felt inclined to renovate certain things before putting my place on the market, but was advised not to.

The eventual buyer, never mentioned anything. If there are things that need changing or upgrading, that will be reflected in the offer price; people want to put their own mark on the property they are investing in. Which, incidentally IMO, would be replacing that horrible looking CU.

Merry Xmas everyone.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Thats the best bit of advice you've been given (including the #4 @Wilko, which won't multi post here?). Unless anything is dangerous, and that appears not to be, I wouldn't be doing anything if you are moving soon. Ask an estate agent. I recently moved, and felt inclined to renovate certain things before putting my place on the market, but was advised not to.

The eventual buyer, never mentioned anything. If there are things that need changing or upgrading, that will be reflected in the offer price; people want to put their own mark on the property they are investing in. Which, incidentally IMO, would be replacing that horrible looking CU.

Merry Xmas everyone.

Hi Midwest, got that... The report did come back as satisfactory.

However, I don't like the idea of passing on possible issues to the next person, call it good karma or something. Call me old fashioned, but my grandparents, who lived through two world wars would never have done that either.

I understand a buyer may rip it all out and that's fair enough. If we were not selling we would commission a full rewire/complete upgrade ourselves and I would insist that the highest quality CU and cabling/fittings etc were used.

As a matter of interest, what would you be replacing the horrible CU with?

Merry Christmas to you and all...

Thanks

 

[hasel5]

I would leave well alone also and you are not handing over a poor job TBH and Merlin boards are really good.

You will be hard pushed to find a board of better quality

 

[Midwest]

Hi Midwest, got that... The report did come back as satisfactory.

However, I don't like the idea of passing on possible issues to the next person, call it good karma or something. Call me old fashioned, but my grandparents, who lived through two world wars would never have done that either.

I understand a buyer may rip it all out and that's fair enough. If we were not selling we would commission a full rewire/complete upgrade ourselves and I would insist that the highest quality CU and cabling/fittings etc were used.

As a matter of interest, what would you be replacing the horrible CU with?

Merry Christmas to you and all...

Thanks

I suspect your prospective buyer would have their own survey and an EICR etc carried out, but as has been already said, your report doesn’t appear to highlight any dangerous issues. I don‘t know your property, but if I was buying an older property, I would be expecting potentially to have upgrading it’s infrastructure, which would include re-wiring, plumbing & heating etc.

I doubt if my misses looked at your CU would have any concerns, but my electricians head just sees it as plain nasty, no offence meant. Others here would argue differently.

Replace your faulty shower, like for like, and keep your money for your new house, don’t spend it on the old one.

 

[Strima]

Those Merlin boards are solid and will out last a lot of the crap available now. Don't waste your money as you'll probably need it for the unexpected on your next property.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Yes that's pretty solid advice from all of you guys... Looking at the CU and considering the hassle and costs I might just take the easy option.

Wait though a plan has presented itself! Looking at the CU again, it occurs to me that it would no doubt be easy for the Electrician to move the 40amp Cooker MCB to the protected ways and then put the shower on that 40 amp MCB circuit. At the same time he could move the cooker circuit onto the 32amp protected ways MCB.

Thus downgrading the MCB for the Cooker circuit and at the same time upgrading the Shower circuit allowing a larger capacity shower to be fitted. This would also be partly in line with his recommendations would it not?

Does that Make sense, would that be possible, would it be in line with the regulations?

Thanks...

 

[davesparks]

Here is a snapshot of section 7 of the report I may have got my information wrong... What are your thoughts please?

Number 2 can be solved by fitting RCBO's rather than replacing whe whole DB.

Number 3 and 5 are nonsense, there is no need to replace things just because they are 'dated' this hould not have been recorded as an observation at all unless they have deteriorated through age so that safety is reduced.

Number 4 is nonsense, there is no limit to the number of appliances that can be run from a single circuit.

Number 6 again can be solved by fitting RCBO's to the existing board.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Number 2 can be solved by fitting RCBO's rather than replacing whe whole DB.

Number 3 and 5 are nonsense, there is no need to replace things just because they are 'dated' this hould not have been recorded as an observation at all unless they have deteriorated through age so that safety is reduced.

Number 4 is nonsense, there is no limit to the number of appliances that can be run from a single circuit.

Number 6 again can be solved by fitting RCBO's to the existing board.

Well seeing as you are throwing in the bombs on page 7 here's the rest of it...

 

[freddo]

Seems a bit odd there was no insulation testing carried out, also a bit strange the RCD test button check has been ticked on circuits with no RCD.

 

[davesparks]

Well seeing as you are throwing in the bombs on page 7 here's the rest of it...

On page 3:
they have recorded the model number where they should have recorded the serial number of the tester.
It is apparently a 3 phase 3 wire supply, yet from your earlier picture it is clearly a single phase 2 wire supply.
The value for U is incorrect
The value for prospective fault current does not correlate with the value of Ze recorded.

And they haven't carried out any insulation resistance testing???

Did they wear a stetson and ride a horse?

 

[Iain Stewart]

On page 3:
they have recorded the model number where they should have recorded the serial number of the tester.
It is apparently a 3 phase 3 wire supply, yet from your earlier picture it is clearly a single phase 2 wire supply.
The value for U is incorrect
The value for prospective fault current does not correlate with the value of Ze recorded.

And they haven't carried out any insulation resistance testing???

Did they wear a stetson and ride a horse?

I don't doubt your reckoning at all davesparks, what you have said makes sense. It looks like we have been led a merry dance with this guy. He is such a nice guy too, butter wouldn't melt... I am really peaved off with the Electrician. I paid for this inspection and shoddiness will not do at all!
The first thing I am going to do is contact, 'SELECT', after the holidays. The main body with who he is registered. I will ask them to carry out an investigation.

Dependant on their advise, I will then ask for him to explain himself and request a refund of the costs he charged us for the inspection!

I have made a copy of the advice gathered here on the forum and will present this to, SELECT with my statement. We will see what happens from there...

Thank you for your very good advice and i will update this thread as soon as I have had a response from SELECT.

It is guys like him that are giving you guys a bad name. Now it seems that even though I checked his credentials that still wasn't good enough! What the hell is an ordinary guy got to do to get a proper job done!!!

Thank you very much for pointing out these mistakes...

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I don't doubt your reckoning at all davesparks, what you have said makes sense. It looks like we have been led a merry dance with this guy. He is such a nice guy too, butter wouldn't melt... I am really peaved off with the Electrician. I paid for this inspection and shoddiness will not do at all!
The first thing I am going to do is contact, 'SELECT', after the holidays. The main body with who he is registered. I will ask them to carry out an investigation.

Dependant on their advise, I will then ask for him to explain himself and request a refund of the costs he charged us for the inspection!

I have made a copy of the advice gathered here on the forum and will present this to, SELECT with my statement. We will see what happens from there...

Thank you for your very good advice and i will update this thread as soon as I have had a response from SELECT.

It is guys like him that are giving you guys a bad name. Now it seems that even though I checked his credentials that still wasn't good enough! What the hell is an ordinary guy got to do to get a proper job done!!!

Thank you very much for pointing out these mistakes...

I think you should speak to the guy before reporting him. He will have a complaints procedure that you should follow.
You have gone from thinking he is wonderful to appalling in a short space of time from taking advice from strangers on a forum. I'm not saying they are wrong, but at least speak to the guy and form your own opinion before possibly damaging his career.

 

[Zerax]

....No, I will ask him to do only the remedial work. I'm sure he would be asking a lot more for a 4 bedroom, 1 sitting room, 1 bathroom, 1 cloakroom and a kitchen rewire with a new consumer unit. He said half a days labour of £250 for the remedial work and in my experience over the years with various Electricians in Edinburgh, that is a good price.
It will no doubt be extra for the shower that I don't mind paying. It will probably come in around £1000 that would be fine for me...

I thought Scotsman had a reputation for being careful with money ?

I'm confused now...