Just look at the overhang!

[D Skelton]

Mr Skelton sir, I thought I would reply to your second post, where you stated that PV panels are so inefficient that they are not worth installing in the UK, I answered this with a real life system that is installed in the UK, I could give you many other examples too.

Now you appear to have changed tactics and it is about taxpayers money and/or Government funding,

I concede, my second post was full of badly worded and exaggerated opinion. I realise that aesthetics has little to do with things, I was being an a$$, deliberately.

The point I have made from the beginning is based on my overall thoughts on solar power, this is a view that I have had for many years and one that primarily made me decide very early on (and by that I mean very soon after establishing my company) that I didn't want to partake in something that I fundamentaly disagree with! Like I said, the actual knowledge needed to design and fit a PV system isn't rocket science and the money needed to set yourself up as an MCS accredited installer isn't really a great deal in the grand scheme of things compared to the huge amounts of money you can make by installing the stuff. So why might you ask aren't I doing it?? I'd be mad not be installing solar panels right?? Well, in my opinion, no.

I agree, my knowledge of an overall industry I don't work in isn't going to be anywhere near up there with you guys, but that doesn't mean to say that I know nothing.

I think I have said my piece now. I'm not going to get anywhere here with such a hostile response. Gavin, may I say a personal thank you to you for engaging with me in civilised discussion, I respect and value your opinion and believe it or not I have learned a fair amount from you which I otherwise wouldn't have known had I not posted.

I shall now leave the territory of the solar caste. Off I trot back to the mere general electricians section of the forum, the section where us untermenschen like to hang out, with my tail between my legs.

 

[MDJ]

I remember wiring up a system when it first came out, not like today though, the system I wired up was actually a water system and the pipes were run on the roof and a pump inside pushed the water to a tank LMAO, I have also connected up a couple of modern systems for people when I was installing an electrical installation to modern homes, never really got involved with it otherwise but always been intreagued by PV. I asked a question earlier about warrenty on panels Gavin, what is the warrenty period on them M8 ?

 

[Earthstore]

Most have performance warrenties of 90% efficiency in ten years, then 80% in twenty years, therefore if the panels performance drops below this they will be replaced, it does not cover the installation of it though only the panel

Because there are no moving parts, there is a very low failure rate for all well constructed panels.

 

[MDJ]

Most have performance warrenties of 90% efficiency in ten years, then 80% in twenty years, therefore if the panels performance drops below this they will be replaced, it does not cover the installation of it though only the panel

Because there are no moving parts, there is a very low failure rate for all well constructed panels.

Ah I see, so performance is the key, so providing it is fitted correctly and in the right direction a panel can pay for itself ten fold?

 

[Earthstore]

Ah I see, so performance is the key, so providing it is fitted correctly and in the right direction a panel can pay for itself ten fold?

In contradiction to what some may believe, yes that is correct.

 

[Gavin A]

I asked a question earlier about warrenty on panels Gavin, what is the warrenty period on them M8 ?

the standard now is 10 years manufacturers warranty against defect, 25 years performance warranty, usually warrantying at least 80% of their initial rated output after 25 years.

Several manufacturers are now bringing out 30 year performance warranties that are even better than this.

 

[shanky887614]

"People should get paid for what they ACTUALLY produce, rather than what the installer says it will produce under standard test conditions"



Err err whats that ugly box the installer put next to my ccu?

(A GENERATION METER SKELTON)

thats where they get there the figure they send off in the same way you send off meter readings for electricity and gas.

Obviously not knowing something so obvious means you have missed the boat entirely when it comes to this subject

 

[SRE]

Just an observation : one of life's lessons that comes with age and experience is that it's rarely a great idea to begin an argument about something that you haven't researched.

ALL of my customers understand pv better than some posting on this forum, which is embarrassing for the profession to say the least and insulting to the integrity of my customers to imply anything else.

Initially I found the claims amusing, although many posts later I realised that only sad installers would read past the first few posts and the Daily Mail view of how poor pv systems are. It doesn't help a struggling industry to have so many ill-informed views perpetuated by other electricians.

 

[shanky887614]

The problem in this trade has always been the same. Once people get there ticket they think they don't have to keep upto date with changes. Im sure there are people about who were trained to 15th and know nothing of 17th etc and its not good

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

D Skelton why do you have a picture of what appears to be an SS officer as your avatar?

 

[SolarCity]

D Skelton why do you have a picture of what appears to be an SS officer as your avatar?

It's Erwin Rommel. Not a great choice of avatar in my opinion, but there you go.

 

[SolarCity]

ALL of my customers understand pv better than some posting on this forum, which is embarrassing for the profession to say the least and insulting to the integrity of my customers to imply anything else.

Initially I found the claims amusing, although many posts later I realised that only sad installers would read past the first few posts and the Daily Mail view of how poor pv systems are. It doesn't help a struggling industry to have so many ill-informed views perpetuated by other electricians.

This was precisely my thought. Judging by those who had 'liked' his comments, there were a few experienced sparks in agreement. I found that very surprising.

 

[Marvo]

I don't get this thread, it's all over the place mainly due to Mr Skelton's blanket bombing approach when he started it I suspect. Bit strange because he's usually pretty focused in his postings.

I have a question though, what motivated the govt to start subsidising PV installations with FIT's in the first place?

 

[spark 68]

D Skelton why do you have a picture of what appears to be an SS officer as your avatar?

What has that got to do with this thread exactly ?, Rommel wasn't in the SS FYI, another one playing the man instead of the ball.

Fair enough all of the regulars on this section have a vested interest in your chosen field, and will defend it, but some on here resorting to ad hominem attacks is frankly undermining your arguments.

Gavin A at least came back with reasoned responses, by all means defend your own interests with reasonable counter-arguments, but turning this into a witch hunt just makes you look bad.

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

I don't get this thread, it's all over the place mainly due to Mr Skelton's blanket bombing approach when he started it I suspect. Bit strange because he's usually pretty focused in his postings.

I have a question though, what motivated the govt to start subsidising PV installations with FIT's in the first place?

Gavin A covered this in this thread fairly comprehensively. In one sentence the FITS were introduced to achieve cost reductions through economies of scale with a view to achieving grid parity in the medium to long term.

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

What has that got to do with this thread exactly ?, Rommel wasn't in the SS FYI, another one playing the man instead of the ball.

Fair enough all of the regulars on this section have a vested interest in your chosen field, and will defend it, but some on here resorting to ad hominem attacks is frankly undermining your arguments.

Gavin A at least came back with reasoned responses, by all means defend your own interests with reasonable counter-arguments, but turning this into a witch hunt just makes you look bad.

Maybe that should have been sent by pm, it was not intended as a witch hunt, I was curious. I did say "appears to be" as I assumed it was not a glorification.

 

[Gavin A]

I have a question though, what motivated the govt to start subsidising PV installations with FIT's in the first place?

a rare moment of clarity by Ed Milliband after years of spectacularly bad government support schemes previously that did barely anything to increase solar uptake, the number of companies in the market or reduce prices.

These policies compared incredibly badly with the German policy of Feed In Tariffs, that had created a market something like 1000 times the size of the UK market pre FITs, so even DECC and Milliband were able to see that this model actually worked incredibly well.... and importantly, had no impact on their departmental budget, and fitted well with their PFI type thinking.

That and campaigns by FOE, STA, greenpeace etc, plus the government signing up to specific renewable energy targets that they wanted to be seen to be trying to meet, given how badly we were doing in 2008 - last among all major EU economies at the time if I remember right. We're now the 2nd biggest market for solar PV in the EU, and for once our timing has actually been pretty good as the Germans did the heavy lifting in terms of paying for the largest amount of solar PV at the highest prices, we've come along and been able to benefit from their expense with the massive cost reductions of the last 3 years.

 

[spark 68]

Maybe that should have been sent by pm, it was not intended as a witch hunt, I was curious. I did say "appears to be" as I assumed it was not a glorification.

Why should I have replied by PM ?, I was responding on an open forum to a remark you made on an open forum.

Besides I don't really have an axe to grind on this subject, I have an open mind because I don't know all of the intricacies being discussed, I find some of the information given both interesting and useful.

Some of the comments made I must say give a very bad impression of this technology, and smacks of either insecurity and a "defend the Hive" mentality, or a lot of marketing BS.

I actually want to hear the facts, and do not want see the snide and snotty remarks, as I am sure potential future customers of this technology who maybe looking at this thread as part of their research do too.

Most people like to make an informed decision, such comments seriously detract from this

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

Why should I have replied by PM ?, I was responding on an open forum to a remark you made on an open forum.

I meant I should have asked about his avatar by pm.

 

[Gavin A]

D Skelton why do you have a picture of what appears to be an SS officer as your avatar?

that'd be Rommel, a great German General, well known for his time in the desert.

Less well known for being forced to commit suicide on Hitlers orders in 1944 as he'd apparently turned against Hitler after touring Germany and discovering what the ----'s were doing in the concentration camps, realising they were going to lose under Hitlers leadership, and being linked with those organising to either remove or assassinate Hitler.

Rommel's Afrika Korps was also not accused of any war crimes, refused to deport Jews from France when he was in command, refused an order to execute Jewish POWs and wrote letters protesting against the treatment of Jews by the Nazis.

If anyone were going to have a German WW2 officer as their avatar, Rommel would be one that I'd be pretty comfortable with tbh.

By the beginning of 1943, Rommel's faith in Germany's ability to win the war was crumbling, as was his estimation of Hitler. Touring Germany, Rommel was appalled at the devastation of the Allied bombing raids and the erosion of the peoples' morale. He also learned for the first time of the death camps, slave labor, the extermination of the Jews and the other atrocities of the ---- regime. Rommel became convinced that victory for Germany was a lost cause and that prolonging the war would lead only to his homeland's devastation. He came in contact with members of a growing conspiracy dedicated to ousting Hitler and establishing a separate peace with the western allies.
On July 17, 1944, British aircraft strafed Rommel's staff car, severely wounding the Field Marshall. He was taken to a hospital and then to his home in Germany to convalesce. Three days later, an assassin's bomb nearly killed Hitler during a strategy meeting at his headquarters in East Prussia. In the gory reprisals that followed, some suspects implicated Rommel in the plot. Although he may not have been aware of the attempt on Hitler's life, his "defeatist" attitude was enough to warrant Hitler's wrath. The problem for Hitler was how to eliminate Germany's most popular general without revealing to the German people that he had ordered his death. The solution was to force Rommel to commit suicide and announce that his death was due to his battle wounds.

At about twelve o'clock a dark-green car with a Berlin number stopped in front of our garden gate. The only men in the house apart from my father, were Captain Aldinger[ Rommel's aide], a badly wounded war-veteran corporal and myself. Two generals - Burgdorf, a powerful florid man, and Maisel, small and slender - alighted from the car and entered the house. They were respectful and courteous and asked my father's permission to speak to him alone. Aldinger and I left the room. 'So they are not going to arrest him,' I thought with relief, as I went upstairs to find myself a book.

"I shall be dead in a quarter of an hour"​

A few minutes later I heard my father come upstairs and go into my mother's room. Anxious to know what was afoot, I got up and followed him. He was standing in the middle of the room, his face pale. 'Come outside with me,' he said in a tight voice. We went into my room. 'I have just had to tell your mother,' he began slowly, 'that I shall be dead in a quarter of an hour.' He was calm as he continued: 'To die by the hand of one's own people is hard. But the house is surrounded and Hitler is charging me with high treason. ' "In view of my services in Africa," ' he quoted sarcastically, 'I am to have the chance of dying by poison. The two generals have brought it with them. It's fatal in three seconds. If I accept, none of the usual steps will be taken against my family, that is against you. They will also leave my staff alone.''Do you believe it?' I interrupted. 'Yes,' he replied. 'I believe it. It is very much in their interest to see that the affair does not come out into the open. By the way, I have been charged to put you under a promise of the strictest silence. If a single word of this comes out, they will no longer feel themselves bound by the agreement.'I tried again. 'Can't we defend ourselves…' He cut me off short. 'There's no point,' he said. 'It's better for one to die than for all of us to be killed in a shooting affray. Anyway, we've practically no ammunition.' We briefly took leave of each other. 'Call Aldinger, please,' he said.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/rommel.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel

 

[Gavin A]

ps I could be wrong, but I'd suspect the avatar would be a fairly classic troll, designed to catch out those who instinctively see the photo and assume the poster was some form of ----, only to have the above pointed out to them.

In which case, I'll have to appologise to D Skelton for stealing his thunder, it's quite a good effort tbf.

 

[SRE]

For the record my ESE facing 3.96kwp system installed on the England/Scotland border 3 years ago last November has generated over 10,600 kwh. Not bad for something that doesn't work.

Feed in Tariff is used to pump prime the market to achieve economies of scale. It's very common, low energy lighting benefited for some years, it's still being done to some degree in the insulation industry after a good 20 years of subsidy and nuclear is still massively subsidised and looks as though it will continue to be subsidised for decades to come. As Gavin says it's the only way to break the chicken and egg cycle.

We had customers in 1990's who wanted to convert to biomass but couldn't guarantee supply, we had suppliers who would like to supply but couldn't guarantee demand. Neither had confidence in the other's longevity and so it didn't happen. RHI has helped to kickstart the process and eventually it will stand on it's own. Long before nuclear.

 

[happysteve]

Personal attacks and insults aside, this thread - the active debate, challenging dogma and counter claim checking - has done more to promote solar pv than any glossy brochure or whiny article in the paper. I tend to read these things and subconsciously see [SUP][citation needed] [/SUP]everywhere. It was nice not to have to do that occasionally, for a change.

Thanks to the main protagonists in this, an interesting and enlightening read.

 

[SolarCity]

Some of the comments made I must say give a very bad impression of this technology, and smacks of either insecurity and a "defend the Hive" mentality, or a lot of marketing BS.

Which comments, specifically, gave you that idea?

The only people dealing with facts in this thread are the installers.

It shouldn't surprise you that people react robustly to someone who clearly knows so little about a subject yet is so confident and strident in telling us that we have it wrong.

 

[MDJ]

Personal attacks and insults aside, this thread - the active debate, challenging dogma and counter claim checking - has done more to promote solar pv than any glossy brochure or whiny article in the paper. I tend to read these things and subconsciously see [SUP][citation needed] [/SUP]everywhere. It was nice not to have to do that occasionally, for a change.

Thanks to the main protagonists in this, an interesting and enlightening read.

Very True, I have actually enjoyed the vast majority of the thread and learned a fair bit from one or two Members here, a couple of ****s are in here with personality problems otherwise a good crowd, I think I will read this forum more often as I find the whole PV thing interesting, Thanks to those involved.

 

[spark 68]

Which comments, specifically, gave you that idea?

The only people dealing with facts in this thread are the installers.

It shouldn't surprise you that people react robustly to someone who clearly knows so little about a subject yet is so confident and strident in telling us that we have it wrong.

I am not going to get into the specifics here, the posters concerned know who they are, and I can't be bothered to trawl all the way back through this thread.
I already said I don't have a dog in this race, I often look in on here to try to keep reasonably up to date as quite a few of my customers ask me my opinion on this subject.

Anyway what do you lot make of this ?: Web of 'green' politicians, tycoons and power brokers who help each other benefit from billions raised on your bills | Mail Online

Fair enough it is in the Daily fail (today), maybe D Skelton had a point after all ?

 

[puddy]

My company has undertaken none as we don't have any interest in PV, however very early on in my career I personally helped out with fitting and installation on a handful of them. Why do you ask?

so why come on this forum and put people backs up? You have not fitted any now your expert?

 

[SolarCity]

I am not going to get into the specifics here, the posters concerned know who they are, and I can't be bothered to trawl all the way back through this thread.
I already said I don't have a dog in this race, I often look in on here to try to keep reasonably up to date as quite a few of my customers ask me my opinion on this subject.

Anyway what do you lot make of this ?: Web of 'green' politicians, tycoons and power brokers who help each other benefit from billions raised on your bills | Mail Online

Fair enough it is in the Daily fail (today), maybe D Skelton had a point after all ?

Climate change denial. Concerns about 'rich getting richer'. Green taxes. Tony Blair. Fat-cat salaries. Wind turbines... yep, it's a Daily Mail special.

None of that article deals with the viability of solar, which was what Rommel's original argument was about.

Anyway, did you see that overhang on that PV install?

 

[mechelec]

The whole green energy business is full of speculative sharks and cowboys. It is at the point where some companies are looking for fields and approaching the DNO's to find out what the capacity of the distribution network is at that point and how much generation they can fit. They are then approaching the landowner and promising huge unrealistic returns on their substantial investment. I for one cannot wait until the government screws the tarriffs down and the sharks and cowboys disappear back to where they came from. It is high time this bubble burst.

 

[FB.]

From what I have seen and heard, I find these figures hard to believe, especially when the average light energy intensity in the UK on a south-facing roof is around 250 Watts per square metre (I can cite many sources for this figure). How is it possible for a 4kW system to produce 3600kWh per year???

I'm not "in the trade" but have an interest in renewables.
My signature has two arrays listed. The data is a little out of date but still a good indicator of the performance (but I'll update it asap in the next few days if I can pull up the stats).

The 3.75kWp is two years old and has generated around 6600kWh which is in-line with the 3300kWh during the 12-month period shown in my signature (and why I haven't bothered to update the figures).
If we scale up the generation stats to be equivalent to 4kWp instead of 3.75kWp:
3300kWh * 4/3.75 = 3520kWh annual average equivalent generation if it was 4kWp rather than 3.75kWp. The array is ESE-facing which is 60 degrees off optimum South.

The 4.0kWp is a year and a half old and has generated about 5300kWh (and on-track to reach 6100 on its second birthday with "average" UK weather) - and that includes half the array facing North with no direct sun on half the panels for about four months of the year.

In case my signature is not visible, system stats here:

15 x 250W Kinve KV250-60M = 3.75kWp.
PowerOne Aurora PVI-3600-UK (indoor model).
Cambs, ESE facing, 40 deg, no shading.
May2012-May2013: 3350kWh; Nov2012-Nov2013: 3350kWh (targets - SAP: 3000, Climate-SAF-PVGIS: 3300).

16 x 250W Kinve KV250-60M = 4.00kWp.
PowerOne Aurora PVI-3600-UK (indoor model).
Cambs, split array: 2.0kWp N-facing, 30deg, no shading + 2.0kWp S-facing, 30 deg, no shading.
May2012-May2013: 3100kWh; Nov2012-Nov2013: 3100kWh (targets - SAP:2800, Climate-SAF-PVGIS: 3050).