Part P 3rd party

[Monkeyblaine]

I've heard that as of today you can get a third party to come in and test and inspect your work as to sign it off. What's the difference between that and being a subby and having the company you work for at the time come in and sign it off. Which is allowed already? How is this third party thing a new rule?

 

[Richard Burns]

According to the building regulations you can, if your are a registered third party certifier, and have been informed of the work in advance, complete and EICR for a new installation and use this to satisfy the building regulations compliance requirements.

If you have your company's QS sign off the installation you have done then this is an EIC that is being completed and this can only be done within the company.

There are as yet no clear indications of what a registered third party certifier is so it would be difficult to implement at present.

 

[Engineer54]

There are as yet no clear indications of what a registered third party certifier is so it would be difficult to implement at present.

Probably someone that gets to pay yet another additional fee to the opportunist scheme providers. They aren't going to let an opportunity like this to pass them by!! lol!!

 

[IQ Electrical]

Probably someone that gets to pay yet another additional fee to the opportunist scheme providers. They aren't going to let an opportunity like this to pass them by!! lol!!

That's exactly what will happen!
There is a 'working group' comprising of DCLG and current CPS providers and they have confirmed that the scheme WILL be separate from the current Competent Persons Scheme with additional requirements for eligibility.
According to NAPIT the earliest possible introduction of the new scheme will be October 2013.

 

[chilliwilly]

If its cheaper than externally notifying building control, it could be worth doing. Especially if its an electrician that works in maintenance that wants to put new lighting in their bathroom or a few extra sockets in their kitchen.

 

[sedgy34]

It's another scam IMO we should all be pleased we have all been put on the electric safe register but soon we will have to pay for that too its always the installer who gets shafted

 

[Toonlad]

Registered competent person


A competent person registered with a Part P
competent person self-certification scheme


Registered third-party certifier

A competent person registered with a Part P
competent person third-party certification scheme

Cut and pasted from Document Part P. Key terms explained on page 10 of the newest publication.

Like you guys said another registration, to sign to. It just gets worse. The more and more these clowns keep trying to .................... i give up **** them all !!

 

[Engineer54]

Registered competent person


A competent person registered with a Part P
competent person self-certification scheme


Registered third-party certifier

A competent person registered with a Part P
competent person third-party certification scheme

Cut and pasted from Document Part P. Key terms explained on page 10 of the newest publication.

Like you guys said another registration, to sign to. It just gets worse. The more and more these clowns keep trying to .................... i give up **** them all !!

Well it really is up to you lads to be honest!! The longer you leave these parasite providers in a position of power over you, the harder it will be to get shot of them.

The sooner you get a National Register of Qualified Electricians, with meaningful minimum registration requirements(similar to those required by say the JIB/SJIB), the sooner you can kick these good for nothing scheme providers into touch!! lol!! You'll also be going some way into cleaning up the domestic electrical industry as a whole!!

 

[sedgy34]

Well it really is up to you lads to be honest!! The longer you leave these parasite providers in a position of power over you, the harder it will be to get shot of them.

The sooner you get a National Register of Qualified Electricians, with meaningful minimum registration requirements(similar to those required by say the JIB/SJIB), the sooner you can kick these good for nothing scheme providers into touch!! lol!! You'll also be going some way into cleaning up the domestic electrical industry as a whole!!

Well please let us know how YOU would go about doing that

 

[chilliwilly]

Yes I couldn't agree more, despite just being accepted back in the niccy on Friday at one of my clients request. We need a licencing system like they have in the US, but preferably like the IP red seal they have Canada that is with you for life. And a volunteer measure to keep up and implement any changes to regs. At the end of the day if there's a loss arising from work that's been carried out, you will be liable whether or not 14th or 17th edition qualified.

The main scheme providers could simply exist to write publications offering the option to provide some clarification or examples to the regs that may cause ambiguity and misinterpretation, if required.

I'm not a big fan of the JIB mind, they wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the ECA. And some of the sparks that I worked with years ago at Vallectricin Leeds, (all I can say is I was desperate). Were nominated through neppatism, not through skill and capabillity.

 

[Engineer54]

Well please let us know how YOU would go about doing that

Sedgy, this is down to YOU and all the others here that it affects. I'm way out of it, Thank God.
As far as i know (check the Internet) there is a campaign that is being run to initiate such a national register (which i have signed up in support of, at the beginning of last year).

It's up to you and the others here to help get it all off the ground!! If you can't be arsed, let others do the leg work, or just except everything that's thrown at you, by these and the other parasites you have all let in, to take over the industry, then that's your problem, no-one else's!!

 

[sedgy34]

It's all the doo gooders cashing in with a safety card every year yet again twisting the knife on the installer who's struggling to earn a living forget the profit

 

[Jay Sparks]

I had my annual Elecsa assessment on Friday and I mentioned this third party thingy to my assesser. He, like most of us on here thinks its a complete farse and a big waste of time. He did say however that there is no extra fee to pay and no new thing to sign up for.......YET!!!!

I also asked him what kind of cert would need to be completed and who is at fault if there was a fire????? He didnt know!!
I think the only cert that sounds practical, until they create a new one, is the multi sig EIC, so at least you can get the plumber, DIYer or who ever does the install to sign the "installtion" part, then the third party tester signs the "I & T" part.....Of cousre, they should just scrap it altogether but thats not gonna happen any time soon..lol

 

[Tuttle]

I had my annual Elecsa assessment on Friday and I mentioned this third party thingy to my assesser. He, like most of us on here thinks its a complete farse and a big waste of time. He did say however that there is no extra fee to pay and no new thing to sign up for.......YET!!!!

I also asked him what kind of cert would need to be completed and who is at fault if there was a fire????? He didnt know!!
I think the only cert that sounds practical, until they create a new one, is the multi sig EIC, so at least you can get the plumber, DIYer or who ever does the install to sign the "installtion" part, then the third party tester signs the "I & T" part.....Of cousre, they should just scrap it altogether but thats not gonna happen any time soon..lol

I was told by someone at ELECSA that they don't have to support the 3rd party sign off if they don't want to and they haven't decided if they are going to or not yet.

 

[Engineer54]

I was told by someone at ELECSA that they don't have to support the 3rd party sign off if they don't want to and they haven't decided if they are going to or not yet.

You can take that statement with a very large pinch of salt i'm afraid!! There is no way any of the scheme providers are going to let an opportunity to rake in money pass them by!! Especially when it will cost them literary Nothing to do so!!

 

[chilliwilly]

Sedgy, this is down to YOU and all the others here that it affects. I'm way out of it, Thank God.
As far as i know (check the Internet) there is a campaign that is being run to initiate such a national register (which i have signed up in support of, at the beginning of last year).

It's up to you and the others here to help get it all off the ground!! If you can't be arsed, let others do the leg work, or just except everything that's thrown at you, by these and the other parasites you have all let in, to take over the industry, then that's your problem, no-one else's!!

Do you have the link for the petition?

 

[Engineer54]

Do you have the link for the petition?

I did or rather i do, but it's on my home computer back in Cyprus. I'm sure if you search the web you'll find it. The link is also somewhere on here, i'm pretty sure that's where i got the original link....

 

[IQ Electrical]

I'm not sure how a 'national register' would actually work-we had one in the JIB!
The idea was to set minimum levels of qualification to meet specific grades, verify the qualifications and issue the appropriate grading card.

Then the Domestic Installer scheme was introduced and many who took this path then found that their qualifications fell well short of the JIB's definition of an approved electrician or even an electrician!
So, how will this national register deal with the above issue and fare any better than the JIB?

Who will carry out technical assessments and verify qualifications and ongoing technical competence? Who will provide insurance-backed warranties on installation work? What will the costs of the verification and warranties be and will it actually end up any cheaper than what we pay now under the current schemes?

Lots of questions and so far, I've never seen any of them answered in a way that would convince me it could work, let alone convince the government to spend millions on it's implementation and the shredding of John Prescott's magnificent work otherwise known as Part P and the Competent Persons Schemes.

 

[Mark187]

I want to help but don't know how to promote/act in fighting for a national register.
Are there any suggestions?:Unable to find the link either btw.

Couldn't we just copy the template for the Gas Safe Register? Electric Safe Register!

 

[chilliwilly]

But then the only trouble is you would have to pay to be assessed and reassessed every 5 years, and pay for the gas safe registration. They would probably have around 10 categories for electrical to start with, then dream up others. And unless you pay for that category assessment, you will be breaking the law if you work within that category.

I would much prefer a licencing system like the IP red seal they have in Canada, that is with you for life with no further third party costs,(except Ontario where there is a fee to renew every 4 years). And its left up to you to keep up with changes in the regs and still certify your work. After all you may still be liable if a loss arises from your actions, whether compliant or not. But I think the property owner and the trades person should still register the work as being compliant with current regs, and above all safe.

 

[Tuttle]

You can take that statement with a very large pinch of salt i'm afraid!! There is no way any of the scheme providers are going to let an opportunity to rake in money pass them by!! Especially when it will cost them literary Nothing to do so!!

It's just what I was told, but I think it depends on who you talk to. The reality is that they don't seem to have thought about it yet, even though the updated Part P has already come into force, and they don't know what they are going to do about it. It worries me that ELECSA / NICEIC now have about 90% share of the market, I thought that sort of thing wasn't allowed.

 

[Engineer54]

I'm not sure how a 'national register' would actually work-we had one in the JIB!
The idea was to set minimum levels of qualification to meet specific grades, verify the qualifications and issue the appropriate grading card.

Then the Domestic Installer scheme was introduced and many who took this path then found that their qualifications fell well short of the JIB's definition of an approved electrician or even an electrician!
So, how will this national register deal with the above issue and fare any better than the JIB?

Who will carry out technical assessments and verify qualifications and ongoing technical competence? Who will provide insurance-backed warranties on installation work? What will the costs of the verification and warranties be and will it actually end up any cheaper than what we pay now under the current schemes?

Lots of questions and so far, I've never seen any of them answered in a way that would convince me it could work, let alone convince the government to spend millions on it's implementation and the shredding of John Prescott's magnificent work otherwise known as Part P and the Competent Persons Schemes.

No you have never had a ''National Register'' the JIB was never set up for that role. Read a little more into the formation of the JIB, and you'll see why they aren't and never have been interested in being the organisation to run a National Registry.

The JIB has been in place now for well over 30 years, the domestic installer scheme for just a few years, and purely based around private parasitic scheme providers requiring minimalist qualifications and little to no experience whatsoever. The whole point to having a National register, is it's membership will be based on realistic nationally recognised electrical qualifications held by the electrician, along with his experience in the industry!!

As i stated, the entry into a National Registry could well be based on similar qualifying requirements that the JIB presently ask for, along with any verifications of experience etc . Any Insurance backed warranties on installation work and holding indemnity insurances and the like, is down to the electricians themselves. Were talking here about a National Registry of Qualified Electricians, not another scheme provider type outfit, being paid to check insurances!! The difference being, that the National Registry will have the teeth to police the system, along with the ultimate authority to remove the worst offenders name and licence from the registry thus removing that persons right to legally practice his trade as an electrician.

There are similar national licencing bodies all over the western world, even in many of the so-called ''Third World'' countries, why is it they can do it, but the UK can't??
Hell you could even pick the workings of these other countries systems to suit the UK's needs. So long as it's not run by a private company, that's just looking at it's shareholders interests, rather than it's registries members. Best would be a non-profit Su-do Government set-up, that remains to be seen. Sure there's lot's to sort out, but better to start now, than letting the present parasites run this industry into the ground....

 

[Engineer54]

It's just what I was told, but I think it depends on who you talk to. The reality is that they don't seem to have thought about it yet, even though the updated Part P has already come into force, and they don't know what they are going to do about it. It worries me that ELECSA / NICEIC now have about 90% share of the market, I thought that sort of thing wasn't allowed.

Don't worry, they are just making sure all the T's are crossed and the I's are all dotted!! When they have found the best maximum wiggle free fee to impose on you lot, you'll know all about it!! lol!!

 

[Tuttle]

Don't worry, they are just making sure all the T's are crossed and the I's are all dotted!! When they have found the best maximum wiggle free fee to impose on you lot, you'll know all about it!! lol!!

Can't see myself paying to sign off others work, sounds like too much hassle to me, think I'll just opt out of that one

 

[Engineer54]

Can't see myself paying to sign off others work, sounds like too much hassle to me, think I'll just opt out of that one

They are just making the change in the rules, into another lucrative money making exercise for themselves.
In other words making the rules up as they go along!! lol!!

 

[IQ Electrical]

No you have never had a ''National Register'' the JIB was never set up for that role. Read a little more into the formation of the JIB, and you'll see why they aren't and never have been interested in being the organisation to run a National Registry.

The JIB has been in place now for well over 30 years, the domestic installer scheme for just a few years, and purely based around private parasitic scheme providers requiring minimalist qualifications and little to no experience whatsoever. The whole point to having a National register, is it's membership will be based on realistic nationally recognised electrical qualifications held by the electrician, along with his experience in the industry!!

As i stated, the entry into a National Registry could well be based on similar qualifying requirements that the JIB presently ask for, along with any verifications of experience etc . Any Insurance backed warranties on installation work and holding indemnity insurances and the like, is down to the electricians themselves. Were talking here about a National Registry of Qualified Electricians, not another scheme provider type outfit, being paid to check insurances!! The difference being, that the National Registry will have the teeth to police the system, along with the ultimate authority to remove the worst offenders name and licence from the registry thus removing that persons right to legally practice his trade as an electrician.

There are similar national licencing bodies all over the western world, even in many of the so-called ''Third World'' countries, why is it they can do it, but the UK can't??
Hell you could even pick the workings of these other countries systems to suit the UK's needs. So long as it's not run by a private company, that's just looking at it's shareholders interests, rather than it's registries members. Best would be a non-profit Su-do Government set-up, that remains to be seen. Sure there's lot's to sort out, but better to start now, than letting the present parasites run this industry into the ground....

Don't get me wrong here-I'd love to see a working licence system but I just don't see it as the cure-all for many of the problems that we have now.
I know the JIB wasn't set up as a national register but it assumed that role and to be fair, it upheld it's qualification requirements for grading.

What are "realistic nationally recognised electrical qualifications"?
Yes, other countries use a licence system successfully but here, especially since Part P, we've fragmented our industry into many tiers of skills-all under the umbrella term of 'electrician'.
So we/they create the licence system and say NVQ Level 3 and a current regulations qualification and you're licensed as an electrician. What then happens to the thousands of Domestic Installer guys that don't have NVQ 3? Are they suddenly not licensed to carry out work that they've been deemed competent to carry out since 2006?

To the other point on insurance backed warranties, you say "it's down to the electricians themselves" but in reality, any insurance scheme that guarantees to a client completion/rectification of a contractor's works will be subject to technical assessments and an additional fee to support the policy so we're heading slowly back to square 1 on costings!

I did a full apprenticeship, 'C' course, 2391-10, HND and have a JIB gold card so I don't forsee a problem personally with whatever qualification criteria would be implemented BUT, there are many out there that could find themselves up the proverbial creek depending on the definition of "realistic nationally recognised electrical qualifications".

 

[Engineer54]

As i see it, only those with worthless credentials would be up the creek. It's pretty pointless Having a Register of Qualified Electricians, if it accepts unqualified people on to the register. Nothing to stop anyone joining an insurance backed scheme, not that i've heard of any of the present scheme providers actually paying out. Not saying it has never or doesn't happen, just that it's very much a rarity!! lol!!

As for the technical assessments, ...come on now, what technical assessment?? Have we ever heard first hand of anyone ever failing a scheme providers assessment. I think it was you, that brought up the fact on another thread, that you knew of an assessor that had been reprimanded or was it sacked, for wanting to fail candidates!! Let's face it there is no such thing as a Domestic Installer, this term was solely brought in to allow these scheme providers to register unqualified and inexperienced folk into their money making schemes. Nothing whatsoever to do with competency!!

As i say if other countries can successfully implement a National Registry/licence system, then there really is no excuse why one shouldn't be implemented in the UK. ...If anything, such a system will go a long way in defragmenting our industry, which can only be a good thing!!

Anyway it's really up to you lot, carry on moaning about the present system your all forced work under and pay dearly (not only in monetary terms) for the privilege, ...or do something about it!!

 

[muzza1]

Probably someone that gets to pay yet another additional fee to the opportunist scheme providers. They aren't going to let an opportunity like this to pass them by!! lol!!

Engineer 54, you're not wrong my old mate. Getting harder and harder to make any sort of profit these days. Oh, i could sign up to be a course provider!