If paying a scam provider for membership brings no benefits whatsoever - why pay them?
I don't see your point, to be honest.
If paying a scam provider for membership brings no benefits whatsoever - why pay them?
I don't see your point, to be honest.
M
malcolmsanford
To comply with the law ...............if your part of a scheme then you can do notifiable work without contacting the local building authority. Once you have completed the work you notify your scheme who will then complete all the paperwork with the LBA and then issue the client the completed certificate.
If you not a member of a scheme then before you can start any notifiable work it is the onus of the home owner to notify the LBA of what work is being done and the LBA will issure you warrnet to start the work. Depending on who is performing the work ie DIY'er or a qualified electrician a scale of charges will be meted out by the LBA.
A
Andrewered
Almost just let it beI had the same experience, my local LABC said it took 6 weeks for the NICEIC to notify them of my work,
now I just send builing control my certs by email, (saves me £1.50)
On topic I would ditch part "pee" altogether, when your undercut by every tom dick & harry & pay
over £3000 to middlemen before the work comes in I can honestly say part "p" is a massive failure (does anyone actually police it !!)
S
sparks72
???????
Let what be?, Part P?
Nope, In my very own experience it doesn't work, again I find myself clearing up other people's electrical mess while they walk away scott free, it doesn't annoy me at all because I'm sure a lot of the folk here have clearing up other peoples mess years before Part P was forced upon us, & it won't stop whatever laws are put in place.
J
jonesyc894
Many excuses for being stupid but, if I am joined to a scheme do I still need to be part P or still contact LABC?
P
pushrod
If you have been accepted onto a scheme you are effectively part p compliant and your scheme provider would then notify the LABC , for a small fee, on your behalf
J
jonesyc894
Cheers pushrod, clears alot up for me and makes life a lot easier.
If you have been accepted onto a scheme you are effectively part p compliant and your scheme provider would then notify the LABC , for a small fee, on your behalf
If you are accepted onto a Scheme you have been deemed competent and can self-certify - nothing more.
You can go direct to LABC and comply with Part P.
It must be remembered that it is ONLY the work carried out that must comply with Part P of the building regs.
E
Electricalserv
But Prof, If you are registered with a scheme, it gives customers a little more faith in you and also its cheaper on your behalf to be in the scheme.
For me its better to be in a club than not.
S
sparks72
From some of the work I've seen I would say that's debatable, surely scheme providers wouldn't turn a blind eye to some of the competent persons mistakes for the money........would they. :skep:
S
sparks72
From my experience your workmanship is what makes your reputation, I was with a scheme provider for 7 years, only once did I get a contract for being in a scheme, all my other work has been through recommendations.
They would and do as a matter of routine.
We are all well aware of the abysmal standard of work carried out by some "competent" persons - yet this is not reflected in the number of complaints.
What you have to remember is that the complaints process that the the Scams operate is DESIGNED to ensure that the number of complaints that are upheld is kept to a minimum (remember, the Scams write their own complaints procedures) - the fact that the Schemes join UKAS (another membership scam) and then ignore the rules that don`t suit may have something to do with this situation.
Did you know that there is NO EXTERNAL, INDEPENDENT MONITORING of the actual standard of work carried out by scam members i.e. an independent assessment of individuals and the work they carry out?
Every Scam operator carries out it`s own assessments which does NOT comply with UKAS guidelines - this is done because assessments make ALOT of money, and they don`t want to run the risk of such practices coming under external scrutiny.
The industry finds it more convenient to carry out yet more box-ticking exercises from a distance because they know full well what they would find in the field.
I have heard the same old excuses for so long now "don`t you think it is better to have these incompetents inside the Scheme,s (i.e. where we can make money out of them) where they can be policed (they are not anyway) , than outside where they cannot?(where they would be outside our sphere of financial influence)".
It is no good fooling ourselves - the fraud is there for all who wish to see ....
D
Dimebag213
The way forward with the part p is to rip it up and burn it... Its a complete failuire as the competent persons scheme allows some one with relatively little experience pass a 17th ed course... Buy test equipment regs and guidance notes and this makes them competent? For some who have worked in the trade this is ideal .... But for someone blagging.... Its just as bad as a cowboy doing the work..... Are any scheme providers going to turn down all that revenue??? They are basically cash cows. Ban the sale of all electrical equipment to all non competent sparks end of story... But that will not happen either!???
S
sliemasteve
In this and many other commenteries there is a focus of the failures of others to follow the rules relating to electrical practice and that some of the rules are defective and enforcement is inadequate.
If you are to focus on the necessity to abide by the rules then in order to avoid hypocrisy I presume you who criticise will be diligent in ensuring every cash payment you receive is recorded for tax purposes, that you carefully separate and pay out of your earnings the equipment you install in your own home, that you drive within the speed limit, when required you use scaffold rather than a ladder, you have taken the trouble to be fully conversant with the building regs and vat legislation to the extent that it your business is required, that your vehicle is not only MOTed but safe. It goes without saying that you will never have tasted cannabis or taken hard drugs or turn up for electrical installation work hung over or too ill to do the job properly
In my opinion it is impossible for a young person to start a business and not break the rules in some way by both accident and design. In my observations most drivers exceed the speed limit they and we are rule breakers, sometimes there is the added possibility of our rule breaking putting ourselves and others in danger. If you are a rule breaker in some area of human endevor temper your indignation at fellow rule breakers who happen to exercise their deficiencies in electrical installation.
The thing about rules is to make it as simple as possible once you are working to simple rules there are no excuses for anything less than average performance.
Is it a requirement that you have to be an intellectual giant to understand the rules of electrical installation in a domestic situation for example? Well, you don't need to be but the 17th edition is a serious attempt at straining the average persons understanding of the English language. I consider it one of the most useless docuements known to man. Considering we have millions of houses in the UK any industry with a modicum of collective intelligence would have the rules for house wiring presented in a format written specific to housing instead of the present universal document written to test our understanding of language rather than to clearly inform us of electrical standards.
I could go on but I sense I am becoming boring but I thoroughly enjoy reading stuff on this forum.
If you are to focus on the necessity to abide by the rules then in order to avoid hypocrisy I presume you who criticise will be diligent in ensuring every cash payment you receive is recorded for tax purposes, that you carefully separate and pay out of your earnings the equipment you install in your own home, that you drive within the speed limit, when required you use scaffold rather than a ladder, you have taken the trouble to be fully conversant with the building regs and vat legislation to the extent that it your business is required, that your vehicle is not only MOTed but safe. It goes without saying that you will never have tasted cannabis or taken hard drugs or turn up for electrical installation work hung over or too ill to do the job properly
In my opinion it is impossible for a young person to start a business and not break the rules in some way by both accident and design. In my observations most drivers exceed the speed limit they and we are rule breakers, sometimes there is the added possibility of our rule breaking putting ourselves and others in danger. If you are a rule breaker in some area of human endevor temper your indignation at fellow rule breakers who happen to exercise their deficiencies in electrical installation.
The thing about rules is to make it as simple as possible once you are working to simple rules there are no excuses for anything less than average performance.
Is it a requirement that you have to be an intellectual giant to understand the rules of electrical installation in a domestic situation for example? Well, you don't need to be but the 17th edition is a serious attempt at straining the average persons understanding of the English language. I consider it one of the most useless docuements known to man. Considering we have millions of houses in the UK any industry with a modicum of collective intelligence would have the rules for house wiring presented in a format written specific to housing instead of the present universal document written to test our understanding of language rather than to clearly inform us of electrical standards.
I could go on but I sense I am becoming boring but I thoroughly enjoy reading stuff on this forum.
W
Webbie
There is also no deterant for the homeowner/ client! If they can get it cheaper from a non registered electrician they don't seem to care about 'part p'
B
Big n Daft
"If you are to focus on the necessity to abide by the rules then in order to avoid hypocrisy I presume you who criticise will be diligent in ensuring every cash payment you receive is recorded for tax purposes, that you carefully separate and pay out of your earnings the equipment you install in your own home, that you drive within the speed limit, when required you use scaffold rather than a ladder, you have taken the trouble to be fully conversant with the building regs and vat legislation to the extent that it your business is required, that your vehicle is not only MOTed but safe. It goes without saying that you will never have tasted cannabis or taken hard drugs or turn up for electrical installation work hung over or too ill to do the job properly
In my opinion it is impossible for a young person to start a business and not break the rules in some way by both accident and design. In my observations most drivers exceed the speed limit they and we are rule breakers, sometimes there is the added possibility of our rule breaking putting ourselves and others in danger. If you are a rule breaker in some area of human endevor temper your indignation at fellow rule breakers who happen to exercise their deficiencies in electrical installation"
What a load of complete and utter tosh!!!
"Is it a requirement that you have to be an intellectual giant to understand the rules of electrical installation in a domestic situation for example? Well, you don't need to be but the 17th edition is a serious attempt at straining the average persons understanding of the English language. I consider it one of the most useless docuements known to man. Considering we have millions of houses in the UK any industry with a modicum of collective intelligence would have the rules for house wiring presented in a format written specific to housing instead of the present universal document written to test our understanding of language rather than to clearly inform us of electrical standards."
Glad we got to bit of common sense in the end, it was almost worth it
In my opinion it is impossible for a young person to start a business and not break the rules in some way by both accident and design. In my observations most drivers exceed the speed limit they and we are rule breakers, sometimes there is the added possibility of our rule breaking putting ourselves and others in danger. If you are a rule breaker in some area of human endevor temper your indignation at fellow rule breakers who happen to exercise their deficiencies in electrical installation"
What a load of complete and utter tosh!!!
"Is it a requirement that you have to be an intellectual giant to understand the rules of electrical installation in a domestic situation for example? Well, you don't need to be but the 17th edition is a serious attempt at straining the average persons understanding of the English language. I consider it one of the most useless docuements known to man. Considering we have millions of houses in the UK any industry with a modicum of collective intelligence would have the rules for house wiring presented in a format written specific to housing instead of the present universal document written to test our understanding of language rather than to clearly inform us of electrical standards."
Glad we got to bit of common sense in the end, it was almost worth it
M
mattsavill
In my opinion Part P is an industry money making scam, I went to college part time for 10 years completing C&G 236 pt's 1, 2 and c course 2391 pat testing and went on to get an ONC and HNC in electrical engineering, and i am a senior member of my firms electrical organisation, I also used to be self employed working for myself at the weekends to make a bit extra, and then part P came in, and took away my capability of earning extra money without being scammed yearly for a few hundred pounds to be assessed by somebody less qualified and less competant than me. I agree that there are cowboys out there but Part P has make the cowboys cheaper, I am no longer self employed as it is not worth the hassle.
If the Government want people to get of there backsides and stop scrouging from the tax payers they need to make things easier.
If the Government want people to get of there backsides and stop scrouging from the tax payers they need to make things easier.
I agree entirely - an individual licensing system would be easy and would afford assurance to the householder that the INDIVIDUAL entering their premises was actually competent - but that would require people to be trained and experienced, which is far less lucrative than the farce that we are currently enduring.:wink_smile:
Hi,
I have been a member of this forum since March 12[SUP]th[/SUP] 2011 and have regularly visited since then and have always enjoyed reading the various threads and feel there are some really decent people on here trying to make an honest living in the face of never ending barriers in front of them.
Don’t know if this is the right place to post this but as this thread concerns Part P and 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition regs thought I would ask anyway.
Just wondering if any of you lads can give me any advice.
Up until 2000 I was employed as an Electrician in the electrical contracting industry ( building sites, Industrial, Domestic etc ). I had all the qualifications req up to that point which were 16th edition C&G etc.
At that point I left the industry to work in newspaper printing as the lure of sick pay and company pension scheme amongst other things became attractive especially as I was over 40rs old and not getting any younger.
However all good things come to an end and next year in keeping with most things in this country there will be major redundancy’s at the plant I work at.
I may or may not be chosen for redundancy but rather than take a chance and just wait to see if the dreaded letter dropps through my door I thought it best to try and safe guard myself by finding out what would be involved in getting back up to speed with the electrical side of things again.
During the time I have been away from our industry I have still done small jobs domestically for family and friends and tried to keep up with the changes such as Part P and the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition regs.
My question is if I was to start up again albeit on a self employed part time basis what is my best route to follow.
regarding courses on 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition regs and Part P etc to get back up to speed.
What are the beat courses I could look at to achieve this.
If any one could offer any advice I would be very grateful.
Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help.
Kind regards,
Phil.
I have been a member of this forum since March 12[SUP]th[/SUP] 2011 and have regularly visited since then and have always enjoyed reading the various threads and feel there are some really decent people on here trying to make an honest living in the face of never ending barriers in front of them.
Don’t know if this is the right place to post this but as this thread concerns Part P and 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition regs thought I would ask anyway.
Just wondering if any of you lads can give me any advice.
Up until 2000 I was employed as an Electrician in the electrical contracting industry ( building sites, Industrial, Domestic etc ). I had all the qualifications req up to that point which were 16th edition C&G etc.
At that point I left the industry to work in newspaper printing as the lure of sick pay and company pension scheme amongst other things became attractive especially as I was over 40rs old and not getting any younger.
However all good things come to an end and next year in keeping with most things in this country there will be major redundancy’s at the plant I work at.
I may or may not be chosen for redundancy but rather than take a chance and just wait to see if the dreaded letter dropps through my door I thought it best to try and safe guard myself by finding out what would be involved in getting back up to speed with the electrical side of things again.
During the time I have been away from our industry I have still done small jobs domestically for family and friends and tried to keep up with the changes such as Part P and the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition regs.
My question is if I was to start up again albeit on a self employed part time basis what is my best route to follow.
regarding courses on 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition regs and Part P etc to get back up to speed.
What are the beat courses I could look at to achieve this.
If any one could offer any advice I would be very grateful.
Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help.
Kind regards,
Phil.
M
malcolmsanford
PJE as you have "kept your hand in" basically all you really need is the 17th edition update. As you took the 16th I assume before 2001 you will need to do the complete 3 day course, and chances are your not going to get one of these before the amendment kicks in now, so I would personally wait until the new year and do the C&G 2382-12.
As for the Part P regulations I would recommend this book
Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations Approved Document P, Electrical Safety in Dwellings: Amazon.co.uk: Books
It covers pretty much everything you need to know and is quite a good guide
As for the Part P regulations I would recommend this book
Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations Approved Document P, Electrical Safety in Dwellings: Amazon.co.uk: Books
It covers pretty much everything you need to know and is quite a good guide
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
Hi malcolmsanford,
Many thanks for your quick reply. Have had a look at the link you supplied but having read the reviews it appears there is now an updated version of this.
One review read as follows:
Excellent book, however it is out of date, I spent 19 quid on this only to find out that the updated version is also for sale
Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations: Pt. P Wiring Regulations : Pt. P Wiring Regulations: Amazon.co.uk: Paul Cook: Books
The original version should be removed from Amazon & I should get the update free !
So I will definitely look into this.
One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post was that having read through all this thread, it appears if you want to be responsible for signing your own work off you need to be registered with one of the electrical organisations like NICEIC.
Does anyone have any recommendations to which one is the best to go with as I know organisations like these have a tendency to be over officious probably to justify the job they are supposed to do.
Anyway once again many thanks for your help.
Regards,
Phil.
Many thanks for your quick reply. Have had a look at the link you supplied but having read the reviews it appears there is now an updated version of this.
One review read as follows:
Excellent book, however it is out of date, I spent 19 quid on this only to find out that the updated version is also for sale
Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations: Pt. P Wiring Regulations : Pt. P Wiring Regulations: Amazon.co.uk: Paul Cook: Books
The original version should be removed from Amazon & I should get the update free !
So I will definitely look into this.
One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post was that having read through all this thread, it appears if you want to be responsible for signing your own work off you need to be registered with one of the electrical organisations like NICEIC.
Does anyone have any recommendations to which one is the best to go with as I know organisations like these have a tendency to be over officious probably to justify the job they are supposed to do.
Anyway once again many thanks for your help.
Regards,
Phil.
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O
oldie
In Canada you apply for a permit before you begin work. The "City" send out the Inspector before you even start! Then he calls back to look at a "rough in" if all is good you get the ok to cover up and call him back for final test. Sounds a lot of hastle but it works well and lots of support from the inspector who does actually want it to move at your pace just so long as you are doing it right! Homeowners do DIY elecrical but hey! when they are selling they must report everything and the lawers love it!!
B
Bonfireman
Hi there.
I need to get my 17th edition certificate. Can I do the exam without the course? Studying at home by myself?
I know it's much better take te course but now I'm short of money and really need this certificate. Some information or link may help.
Thank you very much.
I need to get my 17th edition certificate. Can I do the exam without the course? Studying at home by myself?
I know it's much better take te course but now I'm short of money and really need this certificate. Some information or link may help.
Thank you very much.
A
Astro800
Yes it's true! whether it will get thrown or or not is another thing. I have it straight from the horses mouth. Someone who is part of the governing body & writes the regulations has told me that part P is going to be put before the government, to make it more difficult to be registered.
Within the next year or so, you will have to have qualified with the full City & Guilds 4 year course. So if you are going to take part P, do it now!
Within the next year or so, you will have to have qualified with the full City & Guilds 4 year course. So if you are going to take part P, do it now!
A
Astro800
The system we are going to have in Europe, will be similar to the rules & regulations that they have in Australia.
M
malcolmsanford
Think the NICEC/NAPIT/ELECSA might have an input on that one
A
Astro800
It's NICEC/NAPIT/ELECSA that are involved in the process. EU directive & the Brussels Brigade.
M
malcolmsanford
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh that is going to kill the cash cow then
A
Astro800
We seem to have gone from virtually no statutory requirement, to over regulation.
It's isn't even at the proposal stage yet, so It could be several years.
Something needed doing years ago, because sparkies just started working for themselves & quite a few were bodgers, plumbers, handy men & DIY-ers. All you needed to do was drop a simple completion form in to your regional electricity board & that was it.
It's isn't even at the proposal stage yet, so It could be several years.
Something needed doing years ago, because sparkies just started working for themselves & quite a few were bodgers, plumbers, handy men & DIY-ers. All you needed to do was drop a simple completion form in to your regional electricity board & that was it.
A
Astro800
There is talk of it on here http://www.*****************forum.co.uk/electrician-talk-forum/14639-part-p-changes-possibly.html
This seems to be all speculation, but as I said, I heard it straight from the horses mouth, but he didn't elaborate on it.
This seems to be all speculation, but as I said, I heard it straight from the horses mouth, but he didn't elaborate on it.
A
Astro800
The missing text is talk (dot) electrician It won't allow the link to be displayed.
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M
malcolmsanford
To be honest Astro as well as tightening up the qualification criteria IMO they should also be trying to
1 Educate the public more into why the public themselves should be be doing, The authorities have successfully educated the same public about "Gas Safe" and how only registered fitters should be used, surely the same can and should be done for Part P
2. More teeth when it comes to discovering work that as not been carried out to Part P. I remember a prosecution in London a year or 2 back, when a "Sparks" and I use the term loosely, was actually prosecuted for poor workman ship, but literally got off with a fine
3 Carrying on the Education theme, and local councils. Most seem to have very little grasp of the statutory regulations and in all honesty care even less.
I was never a lover of Part P as it is, but it is here and if it was intended to bring some sort of standard to our industry it has dismally failed. It has created a 2 tier industry with very poorly qualified people being able to ply our trade, legally!!! Long before this silliness there was, and always will be the "Dave down the pub" who knows a bit, but what Part P has done is give licence to any cook, baker, or candlestick maker, that as a few quid to believe that in 5 weeks they can be trained and let loose in our industry.
I don't blame them, I blame the system that Part P as created, and it's the customer that eventually will be the worse for it, and our industry
1 Educate the public more into why the public themselves should be be doing, The authorities have successfully educated the same public about "Gas Safe" and how only registered fitters should be used, surely the same can and should be done for Part P
2. More teeth when it comes to discovering work that as not been carried out to Part P. I remember a prosecution in London a year or 2 back, when a "Sparks" and I use the term loosely, was actually prosecuted for poor workman ship, but literally got off with a fine
3 Carrying on the Education theme, and local councils. Most seem to have very little grasp of the statutory regulations and in all honesty care even less.
I was never a lover of Part P as it is, but it is here and if it was intended to bring some sort of standard to our industry it has dismally failed. It has created a 2 tier industry with very poorly qualified people being able to ply our trade, legally!!! Long before this silliness there was, and always will be the "Dave down the pub" who knows a bit, but what Part P has done is give licence to any cook, baker, or candlestick maker, that as a few quid to believe that in 5 weeks they can be trained and let loose in our industry.
I don't blame them, I blame the system that Part P as created, and it's the customer that eventually will be the worse for it, and our industry
A
Astro800
I think you've just nailed it with that, I couldn't have put it better. But will 4 years on a course make it any better I wonder? If Tom, Dig & Harry/Harriet have spent the whole of their 4 years on the dole. They my be "Qualified", but "Competent"? I've seen the same with so called Site Managers. Arse & Elbow come to mind.
Part P was supposed to define a competent person. In only few days, not a chance! I'm surprised that it's allowed to be taught like that.
Part P was supposed to define a competent person. In only few days, not a chance! I'm surprised that it's allowed to be taught like that.
A
Astro800
A lot of certified work gets cross referenced against tax records. That's how the CORGI registered Central Heating Engineers got nailed a few years ago!
M
MKS
Part P could work so much better if those sitting in glass houses with a half full glass realise it is actually half empty!!! I despise Electrical Trainee, call me whatever, but myself did not even know what a consumer was until I had mastered the art of chopping out, chasing, assembling tray, ladder, pulling in swa, more chopping, sweeping, tea making, every poo job going before i even held a mcb and then comes some tinker, tailor, candlestick maker and becomes a spark by doing some domestic installer course!!! I don't know just gets my back up!!!
M
MKS
My wife calls me Meldrew for some reason!
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M
madmac
Part P is a catastrophic failure and needs to be got rid of with immediate effect!!!
All the inspection bodies should be rounded up and closed down also!!!
The JIB/SJIB's need to be given the recognition from Govt. that they should have!!!
Approved Colleges should be the only route to training apprentices via the JIB/SJIB!!!
And every electrician in Britain needs to join the union and put past grievances to bed for the better of the whole industry!!!
By doing these simple things, we could get back to the proper standards of training and quality workmanship, once taken for granted!!!
If you've got something positive to say and want to help build the industry for the future, join Unite the Union and get involved by coming to your nearest meeting and make the change happen!!!
DIVIDED WE BEG, UNITED WE BARGAIN!!!
All the inspection bodies should be rounded up and closed down also!!!
The JIB/SJIB's need to be given the recognition from Govt. that they should have!!!
Approved Colleges should be the only route to training apprentices via the JIB/SJIB!!!
And every electrician in Britain needs to join the union and put past grievances to bed for the better of the whole industry!!!
By doing these simple things, we could get back to the proper standards of training and quality workmanship, once taken for granted!!!
If you've got something positive to say and want to help build the industry for the future, join Unite the Union and get involved by coming to your nearest meeting and make the change happen!!!
DIVIDED WE BEG, UNITED WE BARGAIN!!!
K
kung
To be honest i've seen some real crap not so much from domestic installers but from diyers ! the fact that stores can sell electrical items to the public and shops as such as B& (well u know) can and some do tell the customer how to install it with no word about any regs ! not just part p is a joke that will never end ! i went to see a job at a mates house who is a tennant but what i saw was by far the worst electrical installs i've ever seen ! im talking carrier bags for ip rating sockets hanging off the wall with live conductors showing im talking 27 code 1's in the 1st 15mins ! and he's got kids ! i strongly advised him etc etc believe me a jap on a kamikaze mission couldnt do that much damage ! we see this sort of crap time and time again and no regs will stop it ! if people take the chance in an unregistered or even an unqualified spark to do their work or do it themselves etc then thats their choice BUT this is NOT helped with part p crap allowing anyone to do most things anyway ! so most people believe what anyone says ! part p has failed as said BIG TIME not that anything worked before to stop shoddy work part p is just for us ! a little gift from them to us in return for our cash which we have too much of ! or thats what they believe ! we are screwed yet again ! the domestic market is shot to sh im sticking to ind/com and screw part p !!!!!!!! id like to see pats patios take that work from me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You`d be amazed at what UNITE Union have done to undermine the electrical trade - and right under the noses of their own members .... ask your union rep what has been said on your behalf at the SECRET meetings that they attend ....
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A
Arnold Layne
I am sorry Mac because you are not going to like what I say but nevertheless I will say it, despite the fact that I respect your loyalty to the Union and it does you credit. But who does the Union train? Who does the Union employ and since when is the Union the answer to the industry's problems? Certainly the Union has a part to play, but so do others. If everything was in the control of the Union why would there be the issues that there are?. The Union has presided over the JIB, which represents less that a third of the industry. The Union has the interface with the Agencies, which for some are a scourge, yet the Union carries on a relationship with them. The Union does not seem to have any type of effective relationship with the mobs and worse still, the Union seems to have lost the trust of the men. Less than 20% of the men that work for the mobs are the men who join the Union.. Don't blame the men! Don't go there! I have met employers who would make better shop stewards that the so called Union Reps. So before you make a call to arms for the men to join the Union it may be a good idea to sort the Union out, to ensure that the organisation which you are asking them to join can truly represent them. Don't get me wrong I appreciate your conviction, but you are not the Union. And we are responsible for what we urge our Brothers to do and we owe them some honesty.
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