Part P & the 17th Edition.

[Spudnik]

Rumour has it that Part P and the 17th edition regulations are in for a substantial review very soon, hinting at, amongst other things, the revision of RCD's on everything, and the possibility of a competent persons register held at the LABC, rather than Part P.

So, if you were given the option of having your say, (not that it will happen), what would you change in the CURRENT regs?

 

[saveloy]

I think the LABC should have LESS involvement not more. I have had nothing but aggro with my LABC. On 2 jobs that I notified to NIC I have also had to send copies of Part P certs and EIC to the LABC because they claim that they have not been notified by NIC!! ******* useless. Just bring in a "corgi" type scheme and be done with it!

 

[sparks72]

I think the LABC should have LESS involvement not more. I have had nothing but aggro with my LABC. On 2 jobs that I notified to NIC I have also had to send copies of Part P certs and EIC to the LABC because they claim that they have not been notified by NIC!! ******* useless. Just bring in a "corgi" type scheme and be done with it!

I had the same experience, my local LABC said it took 6 weeks for the NICEIC to notify them of my work,
now I just send builing control my certs by email, (saves me £1.50)

On topic I would ditch part "pee" altogether, when your undercut by every tom dick & harry & pay
over £3000 to middlemen before the work comes in I can honestly say part "p" is a massive failure (does anyone actually police it !!)

 

[dangerous dave]

Hi all,ive completed 2330 level 3+17th edition and iv'e got 2391 booked for next month,Do i need to do part P to do my own work ie domestic rewires and the like or can i just let building controll know what my plans are on the job and send in my certs.Thankyou for any reply's.

 

[kung]

Hi Dave
You can notify LABC but they will charge the full est £140 as your not a member of a self cert scheme such as NICEIC/NAPIT/ELECSA etc best way is contact a scheme provider and pay the £££s and get your competence assessed then when youre deemed competent you will pass the onsite assessment and be able to self certify your work ! you wont need the domestic installers with some but will have to work and comply with part p ! best way is go onto there websites and check out the domestic installers scheme requirements !
Regards
Kung.

Hi Jason
my change is more with scheme providers than regs but the yearly subs are a lot of dosh if you ent had much work together with all other exp's cals, insurance's etc etc etc its alot to find ! think it should be alot cheaper and cut the cost to us so we can compete a bit more with cowboys and pub man etc that is what we all want to stamp out isnt it ? so mine is a revamp on our yearly costs and more or should i say a POLICING system in place to stamp them out !
Regards
Kung.

 

[sparks72]

Hi Dave
so mine is a revamp on our yearly costs and more or should i say a POLICING system in place to stamp them out !
Regards
Kung.

The problem is that the scheme providers are only interested in the money
& couldn't give a monkeys about cowboys, the NICEIC had to go begging
to T.V. bosses for free part "pee" adverts, has anyone seen them since it all started......errrr no!
it's a joke, I saw one advert at 4 in the morning 2 years ago, we've been had by the middlemen again

 

[saveloy]

Hi Jason
my change is more with scheme providers than regs but the yearly subs are a lot of dosh if you ent had much work together with all other exp's cals, insurance's etc etc etc its alot to find ! think it should be alot cheaper and cut the cost to us so we can compete a bit more with cowboys and pub man etc that is what we all want to stamp out isnt it ? so mine is a revamp on our yearly costs and more or should i say a POLICING system in place to stamp them out !
Regards
Kung.

This describes the problem in my mind. There is no policing system. Has anyone actually ever been prosecuted for non compliance with part P? I have heard of prosecutions for dangerous electrical work but what about non notification of notifable work?
The problem as I see it is Part P has been forced on both electricians AND LABC. We don't want it and LABC have enough to do without the endless hassle of Part P. There is no deterrent against the non notification of work, apart from the fact that you may have a problem selling your house without a relevant Part P cert. There needs to be a single body, and it made illegal for non members to carry out electrical work.

 

[sparks72]

This describes the problem in my mind. There is no policing system. Has anyone actually ever been prosecuted for non compliance with part P? I have heard of prosecutions for dangerous electrical work but what about non notification of notifable work?
The problem as I see it is Part P has been forced on both electricians AND LABC. We don't want it and LABC have enough to do without the endless hassle of Part P. There is no deterrent against the non notification of work, apart from the fact that you may have a problem selling your house without a relevant Part P cert. There needs to be a single body, and it made illegal for non members to carry out electrical work.

I hear even the LABC have had enough!
Part "pee" is a failure simple as that.
the only purpose it serves is a paper trail back to the Inland Revenue,
apparently we make a fortune & stuff all the money in our pillows

 

[kung]

Agree ! the problem isnt helped also as a couple of mths ago i was at my local B & Q store when i overheard the (NOTED ELECTRICAL SPECIALIST) STAFF telling this young couple how to install the new shower without a mention of tests/certs/part p etc then how to install a new CU ! ive mentioned this before and ticks me off when i hear DIY shop workers telling customers how to do the work ! one way of policing it would be to only let qualified sparks & registerd installers only buy CU's and other electrical items as its not helping the cause and fight against DIY etc electrical installs.
Regards
Kung.

 

[bluesparky]

I hear even the LABC have had enough!
Part "pee" is a failure simple as that.
the only purpose it serves is a paper trail back to the Inland Revenue,
apparently we make a fortune & stuff all the money in our pillows

What do you mean what has part p got to do with the taxman?

 

[dangerous dave]

cheers kung thats been a great help mate cos nobody likes throwing money away do they.And as for cowboys i did a job for a neighbour the other day who had cross polarity all through downstairs and told me someone else did it.So i tested it out and took every socket off and checked but then he tells me he did it when he did the extention and took the feed from one of the front room sockets,and to top that the idiot had run kitchen power as a radial using flex.how an earth are we to try and earn a living with idiots like this about.

 

[yido81]

well surley if it wernt for that idiot, you wouldnt of got the job to correct it, so you've got some work out of it!! keep up the ****e work i say, i like a challenge

 

[mazdaman]

Rumour has it that Part P and the 17th edition regulations are in for a substantial review very soon, hinting at, amongst other things, the revision of RCD's on everything, and the possibility of a competent persons register held at the LABC, rather than Part P.

So, if you were given the option of having your say, (not that it will happen), what would you change in the CURRENT regs?

The LABC register is at Local Authority Building Control - SEARCH RESULTS

It tell's you who a company is registered with.

As regards Part P.

Part of the home sellers pack HIP is to provide an electrical certificate or PIR. If the cert shows a rewire that has not been notified, or any other notifiable work to LABC, this could come as a 'shock' to a lot of 'sparks' when the buyers solicitor's un 'earths' in their local searches that the works have not been notified.

 

[UNG]

What do you mean what has part p got to do with the taxman?

Part P provides a paper trail that the taxman could use to cross check your accounts or find out if you are part of the black economy


My opinion is that the whole of the electrical industry should have a Corgi / GasSafe type scheme.

The discrimination between industrial / commercial installations and domestic installations in Part P is what makes it a joke.

Part P = Political knee jerk reaction to a politicians getting a fatal electric shock after having a new kitchen fitted, that is why it is not working. How can you produce a law that says a spark can fit out commercial kitchens without hinderance but can't fit out a domestic kitchen unless he notifies building control or is a member of a scheme

As I have said before I have seen work carried out by a Part P spark and accepted by building control, and it didn't comply with the regs!

The revision it needs is remove the need for notification / scheme membership but keep the Part P document as the legal guidance for compliance with BS7671, and introduce a registration system for electricians similar to the gas fitters system

 

[Graeme Harrold]

The LABC register is at Local Authority Building Control - SEARCH RESULTS

It tell's you who a company is registered with.

As regards Part P.

Part of the home sellers pack HIP is to provide an electrical certificate or PIR. If the cert shows a rewire that has not been notified, or any other notifiable work to LABC, this could come as a 'shock' to a lot of 'sparks' when the buyers solicitor's un 'earths' in their local searches that the works have not been notified.

Only think the HIP does a search of the docs held by LABC and does not do any comparrison with the property in question, so therefore completely worthless, just like the HIP. Its a half arsed idea that was not implemented correctly. Is Ive mentioned in another thread, the only people who could enforce much of the regulations, inspections etc are the insurance companies.

With all the publoc sector cuts, councils do not have the resources to police Part P, and as everyone seems to agree, the scheme providers just want the money!!!!

So back to the original question....Incorporate kitchens in as a special location and get rid of the confision!!!!
Advance warning of RCBO's may drive down the price of them DOWN.
Change the inspection intervals from recommended to mandatory thus removing the element of descretion (which the client takes to the maximum)

1 single register for competance, not the multitude of schemes now, and all paperwork direct to them. LABC dont really need it!!!!

 

[andyb]

Am I the only electrician in favour of part p?

What's wrong with trying to get our trade onto a profesional footing?

Defined scope is plainly wrong and must be got rid of and there are other problems as there are with all professional bodies.

I had the same experience, my local LABC said it took 6 weeks for the NICEIC to notify them of my work,
now I just send builing control my certs by email, (saves me £1.50)

On topic I would ditch part "pee" altogether, when your undercut by every tom dick & harry & pay
over £3000 to middlemen before the work comes in I can honestly say part "p" is a massive failure (does anyone actually police it !!)

Where does the £3000 come from?
If you do your job properly with the correct materials and tools you will allways be undercut by every Tom Dick & Harry, part p or no part p.

Part p costs me about £10.00 a week plus the loss of half a day for my assessment.
I lose work to cowboys but I did before part p.
I also get work because of part p as the public are very slowly becoming aware of its existance.

 

[UNG]

Am I the only electrician in favour of part p?

What's wrong with trying to get our trade onto a profesional footing?

1. Probabley !!

2. Whats professional about Part P ? Are you suggesting that commercial sparks are not professional because they don't need Part P ?

 

[andyb]

1. Probabley !!

2. Whats professional about Part P ? Are you suggesting that commercial sparks are not professional because they don't need Part P ?

No, I do commercial work myself, the point being that commercial & industrial installations are usually overseen by responsible persons.
What was hapening in dwellings (and still is) is that people were getting work done by non qualified, non accountable 'electricians' with no record and no certification.
Part p is an attempt to address this.
We now have part p, are you saying UNG that you prefer a system where anybody can call themselves an electrician, with no qualifications, undertake work in dwellings with no test equipment, do shoddy and dangerous work and not be accountable. That will certainly keep the cost down.

I know these things happen now, but it's illegal.

 

[UNG]

No, I do commercial work myself, the point being that commercial & industrial installations are usually overseen by responsible persons.

Not in all commercial installations

What was hapening in dwellings (and still is) is that people were getting work done by non qualified, non accountable 'electricians' with no record and no certification.
Part p is an attempt to address this.

Part P hasn't stopped B&Q etc selling electrical equipment and offering how to do it advice to joe public

We now have part p, are you saying UNG that you prefer a system where anybody can call themselves an electrician, with no qualifications, undertake work in dwellings with no test equipment, do shoddy and dangerous work and not be accountable. That will certainly keep the cost down.

I know these things happen now, but it's illegal.

Are you saying that because I am not Part P, I am not a competent electrician and it should stop me doing quality work in domestic dwellings including my OWN !
You obviously haven't read ALL of my previous post. It's time that all the electrical industry was regulated properly not the half baked half cocked Part P legislation. Individual registration based on qualifications would be the best route in my opinion and not just NVQ's, I'm talking City & Guilds etc to prove the theoretical knowledge not just practical knowledge

 

[Graeme Harrold]

At least the gas industry seems to have its house in a bit of order with tickets for both commercial and domestic installations. No reason why the same cant be applied to the electrical, but no end of regulations are useless unless policed correctly, and that will only happen domestically when a fresh periodic is required to sell a house and previous works certificates are available.
The government should back an advertising campaign highlighting the virtues of safe (competent) installers............covering all trades in one hit......

 

[hotXbun]

As I understand the meaning of it all, “Part P” is that section within the Building Regulations devoted to electrical safety in dwellings. It then defines what is a habitable place thereby limiting the scope to non-commercial environments (without being too picky).


As a builder I need to be assessed as competent in Part P so that I can carry out my work legally and with due regard to my Clients interests. Naturally, if I look after my Client, I like to think it will be a reciprocal arrangement.


I think any Electrician who looks upon Part P as interfering is forgetting that Part P is just one part of the regulations and perhaps shouldn't be something to cause too much concern. Part P is specifically aimed at providing a level of expertise in association with other works. No one who goes and completes a short course and passes their NVQ exam is entitled to call themselves an Electrician. I went on the course and I am not an electrician, I am just someone who now understands the correct procedures as set out by the Part P regulations and I am thankful that they are quantified in such a manner. I have yet to complete my course relating to a proper understanding of the 17th Edition in all its glory but it doesn't entitle me to become an Electrician (at least, not without devaluing the term).


As anyone in the Building Trade knows, experience counts for everything. In my youth an electrician started off as an apprentice and a mate and learnt how to be respectful towards those who were there to offer advice and support in those times of ignorance. Health and Safety in he workplace might not have been up to today's standards, but at least there was the feeling that you new your place!


I personally feel that Part P should exclude fitting of consumer units as I believe this is outside the scope of an NVQ level 2 (or is it 3) exam …. Put it another way, on paper most people who go on a short course cannot possibly have the required experience to have the necessary feel to be confident that the work has indeed been done competently! Am I wrong to think this way?


My main worry with the present means of registration is that one is tested for competence by representative of organisations that might have a vested interest in making the assumption that your level of competence (as exhibited in a short assessment) is actually sufficient. I happen to believe I am competent as I have many years of experience behind me but I still don't call myself an electrician … at least, I do, but only because my Client's don't know better lol.


Another reason for being registered is that I can proudly place my Part P stickers on my Ranger pickup as it allows me a modicum of inverted snobbery and also I get to be let in the traffic sooner than those trendy 4x4's that are so popular...


I also happen to think that the Part P regulations dealing with 'minor works' is far too itemised. If something is competently sorted into the minor works section, that should be all that matters. Any observed deviations from the latest regs can be itemised and shown/advised to the client but more than that seems a bit OTT. Trying to cater for all possibilities in an imperfect scenario by pedantically instructing on what needs to be done in pursuit of perfection is to my mind a question mark on the competence of those in charge.


I also puzzle over the seemingly wonderful separation of the kitchen area into minor works. Such an electrically important place and it not regarded as 'special'?


And finally, I guess the question I pose is will all consumer units one day have self testing diagnostics that will be part of the unit and not something I have to clip on and be recalibrated annually!

 

[andyb]

Not in all commercial installations


Part P hasn't stopped B&Q etc selling electrical equipment and offering how to do it advice to joe public


Are you saying that because I am not Part P, I am not a competent electrician and it should stop me doing quality work in domestic dwellings including my OWN !
You obviously haven't read ALL of my previous post. It's time that all the electrical industry was regulated properly not the half baked half cocked Part P legislation. Individual registration based on qualifications would be the best route in my opinion and not just NVQ's, I'm talking City & Guilds etc to prove the theoretical knowledge not just practical knowledge

Gorgi & gas safe hasn't stopped B&Q selling gas accessories.
I agree with you about the advise but that's their lookout. How many time have you been in the wholesaler when a member of the public asks for advise, I never give it but tell them to get an electrician.

I'm not saying anything about your competance, all I'm saying is that regestering with a part p scheme provider is one way of proving your competance.
The trouble with just using qualifications as you sugest is that if I come to your house and do a bad & dangerous job I've still got my qualifcations to show the next customer. They can't be taken away.
I can however lose my registeration with the niceic.

I agree with you that the whole of the electrical industry should be regulated,

Of course I've not read all your posts.

 

[Paul P]

My big problem with part P is it does not stop contractors employing non qualifyed staff and keeping the inspector away from there jobs.

Also it prevents qualified and competent staff working on there own homes without paying building control a few £££ to have someone less qualified check there work. We are not all self employed sparks you know!!!

Sorry but I feel it is taking the “P”

 

[patricklondon]

Make it so that there is only one scheme to register with - auction the rights, merge them...

Give it a ronseal name (does what it says on the tin) gas safe is self explanatory isnt it. something like safe domestic electrics or domestic electricians register you get the idea.

Get rid of the anagram/acronym type names they just cause confusion to all, upcoming sparks and the public alike.

Promote it. Just like corgi was gas safe has already been widely publicised. its rare for the public to know about part p let alone any of the register schemes.

Enforce it. Make it an offence to do home electrics just as it is with gas.

Make it more affordable for the up coming sparks who has proved competant/ qualified (i know this is a whole other debate) so that it is easier for sparks to be properly compliant. take more off each notification instead perhaps, this part is less important

 

[kung]

The NIC domestic installers vehicle sticker just has that and a house with a socket on ! most people i see dont have a clue what it means mabe i do PAT testing ? i dont know is what most people think and who are NICEIC ? etc etc and approved contractor means what ? just has that nothing to indicate whats what ! mabe as said it would be a better indication if it said NICEIC DOMESTIC ELECTRICIAN and NICEIC APPROVED ELECTRICIAN etc as the public know well think an electrician installs wires lol as said GAS SAFE is self explanatory.

 

[hotXbun]

Make it so that there is only one scheme to register with - auction the rights, merge them...

Give it a ronseal name (does what it says on the tin) gas safe is self explanatory isnt it. something like safe domestic electrics or domestic electricians register you get the idea.

Get rid of the anagram/acronym type names they just cause confusion to all, upcoming sparks and the public alike.

Promote it. Just like corgi was gas safe has already been widely publicised. its rare for the public to know about part p let alone any of the register schemes.

Enforce it. Make it an offence to do home electrics just as it is with gas.

Make it more affordable for the up coming sparks who has proved competant/ qualified (i know this is a whole other debate) so that it is easier for sparks to be properly compliant. take more off each notification instead perhaps, this part is less important

Patrick, I was going to write in something very similar to that ....

I don't mind each of us belonging to different Organisations but why can't they all agree to promote our competence rather than promoting/presenting their individual 'Labels'? As far as Jo Public is concerned they don't really know the difference between Napit or Elecsa or Niceic so why not get rid of the differences and all belong to a single unified Appelation that could be presented to the general public as our 'Official' easy to recognise across the board does what it says on the label type of insignia!

At the moment we seem to be advertising the organisations that we belong to rather than advertising ourselves ... it just seems to me it is the wrong way round but no doubt nothing we say will make much difference

 

[Paul P]

In my opinion the Australians have the right idea, every electrician has his own licence (Cost is 300 Australian dollars and lasts for 5 years) it allow him to work for an electrical contractor, do work at his own home and immediate relieves.

If he wants to work for himself he then needs a contractors licence.

And this applies to all work not just domestic.

 

[patricklondon]

Definition
appellation noun

/ˌæp.əˈleɪ.ʃən/ n [C] formal

a name or title
As a child, he received the appellation 'Mouse'.





nice word, had to look it up

 

[kung]

Wonder how long it will be before emergency lighting will be compulsory in domestics as is other installs ?

 

[drywax]

All we need is an umbrella group say "ELEC-SAFE" that allows all the registered bodies to group under, run and funded by the government after all its them who insist on the regs they get enough tax from us all to fund it at no extra cost. Then you can wack a simple sticker on the van that everyone knows about. There you go Mr Brown if your reading it its just simple common sense but then I wouldn't expect to politicians to understand the meaning of common sense