J
Johno
Code 4
- Thread starter confused-fuse
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G
Guest123
You as someone who carries out PI reporting, need to think about why you think a 'lighting circuit' needs or doesn't need RCD protection. what is it about the circuit that you think needs or doesn't need RCD protection, what regs (if any) are involved etc.
A
AllertonEPS
That's why I'm asking the question - It is not my opinion that counts - it is the Regs opinion - I can have a personal opinion but when that opinion has a huge financial impact - it is not appropriate to have a personal opinion - the opinion has to be a universal opinion - hence my addition to this thread.
So your comment about questioning my knowledge is not appropriate - I just need a little guidance as to what others consider appropriate Codes for Lighting circuits without RCD protection. Maybe the penny hasn't dropped with me - but it is obviously a Code 4 issue, but was just wondering whether it should be any higher.
So your comment about questioning my knowledge is not appropriate - I just need a little guidance as to what others consider appropriate Codes for Lighting circuits without RCD protection. Maybe the penny hasn't dropped with me - but it is obviously a Code 4 issue, but was just wondering whether it should be any higher.
G
Guest123
I wasn't questioning your knowledge, just trying to stimulate thoughts about why a particular circuit may or may not need additional protection via an RCD. All PIR's are one persons personal interpretation of the regs, 2 people would not produce the same report on the same installation.
D
Deleted member 9648
A lighting circuit may need RCD protection if it is part of a TT system,has cables buried at <50mm...or is in a special location.....the code applicable would depend on which of those requirements was not met....there are plenty of lighting circuits which do not require any RCD protection....so I cant see how such a general question can be relevant.
A
AllertonEPS
Thanks WirePuller - You say that 'plenty of lighting circuits do not require RCD protection' - I think the opposite - I can't think of many older installations that would meet the criteria of not requiring an RCD. Plently unearthed conduiting or cables plastered straight into the walls less than 50mm. Therefore most would require an RCD ie Code 2. Hence my original post ...
There can never be a definitive code for a given scenario as the scenario's are infinite, you use your judgement as a competent person, a mini risk assessment if you like and then you apply a code.
J
Johno
Though there are some circumstances that can be grey areas and require personal judgement, most are obvious ie. code 4 = not to current regs but poses no danger.
So to me a lighting circuit with cables in wall = code 4
There is a guidance leaflet out, I think its ESC which gives plenty of examples.
So to me a lighting circuit with cables in wall = code 4
There is a guidance leaflet out, I think its ESC which gives plenty of examples.
D
Deleted member 9648
The regs are not rectrospective,if an install complied with the regs when it was installed,but does not meet the current requirements of bs 7671,in most cases the code would be 4.
A lighting circuit in a commercial property surface wired and on a TN system would not require RCD protection.
A lighting circuit in a domestic property surface wired would not require RCD protection.If that circuit included a bath/shower room,that would be a code 4.
A lighting circuit with buried cables wired prior to the 17th edition (2008)did not require RCD protection,it was safe then and it's safe now...therefore code 4.
RCD protection cannot be a substitute for lack of adequate earthing....if a lighting system with class 1 fittings does not incorporate an earth that would be a code 2 or even a code 1 if there was evidence of a low IR or failing insulation....Lack of RCD to such a circuit ( even if it is required) is a different issue altogether.
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A
AllertonEPS
Thanks guys - all helpful comments
M
morph
agree with Wire puller , except the bathroom light bit, i would code 2 if supplymentary bonding not in place as well , unless before 17th, so if installed at 17th or later and it was all bonded then code 4, but if not all bonded then code 2.
gotta love the regs
gotta love the regs
B
baldsparkies
Sorry to butt in lads, but this is on the thread as a code 4. If true, it would cover a problem I have been mentioning regarding a pre 2008 install of NS/ Heaters with a 30ma rcd as the mainswitch.
16 Absence of RCD protection for cables installed at a depth of less than 50 mm from a surface of a wall or partition where the cables do not incorporate an earthed metallic covering, are not enclosed in earthed metalwork, or are not mechanically protected against penetration by nails and the like.
If this is so, then the absence of the RCD would only rate a code 4 in these circumstance. (That would also be my thoughts) would you lads agree ??
16 Absence of RCD protection for cables installed at a depth of less than 50 mm from a surface of a wall or partition where the cables do not incorporate an earthed metallic covering, are not enclosed in earthed metalwork, or are not mechanically protected against penetration by nails and the like.
If this is so, then the absence of the RCD would only rate a code 4 in these circumstance. (That would also be my thoughts) would you lads agree ??
G
Guest123
On a PIR, yes.
B
baldsparkies
Thanks Lenny,
An installation from 8 years ago has recieved a so called upgrade using a consumer unit with a single 30ma rcd. it feeds 6 N/S Heaters and an immersion heater.
These have been put into several flats that are tennanted by old age pensioners. Ever since the rcd install the pensioners are being left without overnight charge as several of the rcd's have intermitently tripped when the E7 has been energised at night. There are no faults with any of the system to cause this, so It looks like the rcd's just don't like being energised under load. Several sparkies have visited but the problem remains. My own feelings are to hell with the rcd's, fit a mainswitch and give these poor pensioners heat before they end up with hypothermia. I am a supporter of rcd's, but they can sometimes do more harm than good and this is a case in proof as far as I am concerned. (Rant over)
An installation from 8 years ago has recieved a so called upgrade using a consumer unit with a single 30ma rcd. it feeds 6 N/S Heaters and an immersion heater.
These have been put into several flats that are tennanted by old age pensioners. Ever since the rcd install the pensioners are being left without overnight charge as several of the rcd's have intermitently tripped when the E7 has been energised at night. There are no faults with any of the system to cause this, so It looks like the rcd's just don't like being energised under load. Several sparkies have visited but the problem remains. My own feelings are to hell with the rcd's, fit a mainswitch and give these poor pensioners heat before they end up with hypothermia. I am a supporter of rcd's, but they can sometimes do more harm than good and this is a case in proof as far as I am concerned. (Rant over)
The better way would be RCBO's and you'd find an end to the tripping problems too as any imbalance on load would not be summed at the main switch rcd.
A
AllertonEPS
Have you checked the Immersion Heater coil - That would be the most likely cause of the RCD tripping - Check the MOhm to Earth ...
B
baldsparkies
Immersion my first port of call but nope its good, and remember this is more than one property with the same problem. rcbo's spot on except for ££££££££s. I may fit a timed delayed as an option, seeing as tripping only occurs on the initial energising of the E7. But why have an rcd in the first place me thinks ???
D
darking
Well several things, I prefer best practice guide 4 on reccomendation codes, secondly you do not "Fail" an installation doing a PIR it is either satisfactory/unsatisfactory, and I would agree labelling is a 2 ie needing improvement.
Periodics are not for the new electrician, even if you did your 2391 course as part of your training, you need in depth knowledge of the type of installation you are testing.
You also requires a good understanding of the regs and their relationship to installation requirements, so that you are not guessing or misunderstanding those two columns of tick boxes in the schedule of inspection and dozen or so columns in your schedule of test results.
Finally, good as these forums are, you need a process of verification in place so that any grey areas or inaccuracies can be rectified. If you are self employed, send a copy now and then of any certificate to your accrediting body
Periodics are not for the new electrician, even if you did your 2391 course as part of your training, you need in depth knowledge of the type of installation you are testing.
You also requires a good understanding of the regs and their relationship to installation requirements, so that you are not guessing or misunderstanding those two columns of tick boxes in the schedule of inspection and dozen or so columns in your schedule of test results.
Finally, good as these forums are, you need a process of verification in place so that any grey areas or inaccuracies can be rectified. If you are self employed, send a copy now and then of any certificate to your accrediting body
R
Rochelle
there is no way i would fail an installation because of this, i would put that down as a code 4.
A
arcbrightmike
Does anyone out there code 1 cables installed a depth less than 50mm? I have been coding them as 1 for a few 1st floor flats that i have carried out PIRs on that are going to be rented out and one is a change of occupancy. I feel this is quite a high risk because when new tenants move in, they may be hanging pictures, attaching things in the kitchen. When coding things a 2 for some reason my client thinks that it isnt very important
Here are some examples of why I think it is important
I remember being told a story about someone had drilled a magnetic knife holder to the tiled wall above the work surface in the kitchen, and the user kept getting tingles when torching it but thought nothing of it. One day they were doing some washing up with one hand in the sink which was earthed, went to take a knife off of the holder and received a fatal shock from it. Now if it had RCD protection it would have saved them or even alerted the person attaching the holder to the wall by tripping out.
Another example is of the family of immigrants living in rented accommodation. The last winter was a cold one, so cold that this man had to try and heat his bathroom by running an extension from another room to the bathroom plugged in a heater and put it on a shelf above the bath so that his wife and child could have a bath. The heater fell in and killed them both. If there was RCD protection I'm sure there would have been more of a chance that they would have lived.
The world is full of people who know nothing about electrical safety, there is always going to be one person who does these dangerous things. An RCD is the first defence in the way of safety.
Here are some examples of why I think it is important
I remember being told a story about someone had drilled a magnetic knife holder to the tiled wall above the work surface in the kitchen, and the user kept getting tingles when torching it but thought nothing of it. One day they were doing some washing up with one hand in the sink which was earthed, went to take a knife off of the holder and received a fatal shock from it. Now if it had RCD protection it would have saved them or even alerted the person attaching the holder to the wall by tripping out.
Another example is of the family of immigrants living in rented accommodation. The last winter was a cold one, so cold that this man had to try and heat his bathroom by running an extension from another room to the bathroom plugged in a heater and put it on a shelf above the bath so that his wife and child could have a bath. The heater fell in and killed them both. If there was RCD protection I'm sure there would have been more of a chance that they would have lived.
The world is full of people who know nothing about electrical safety, there is always going to be one person who does these dangerous things. An RCD is the first defence in the way of safety.
Code 1?
Immediate danger, live exposed parts, no main earth etc etc.
There is so much guidance available on codings, like the ESC guide compiled by a who's who of the electrical industry, it will be worth you reading it.
http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/industry/best_practice/BPG4_08.pdf
Immediate danger, live exposed parts, no main earth etc etc.
There is so much guidance available on codings, like the ESC guide compiled by a who's who of the electrical industry, it will be worth you reading it.
http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/industry/best_practice/BPG4_08.pdf
M
mogga
if 50mm depth is a code 1 where would it all stop?? someone MIGHT spur off a ring main with bell wire so a 32A mcb would be over rated so lets code 1 incase they do that??
if your doing PIRs there are some situations everyone has comeacross where you scratch your head but majority are in GN3 OSG and other publications like the ESC one IQ has linked to
if your doing PIRs there are some situations everyone has comeacross where you scratch your head but majority are in GN3 OSG and other publications like the ESC one IQ has linked to
A
arcbrightmike
Yes I see were you are coming from. I will have a good read, and revise the PIRs. So if there was nothing wrong with the property other than that, would a code 4 that make it satisfactory? In one of them there is a halogeon spotlight fitting in the bathroom, half of it hanging over the bath. Code 2? No means of isolation for cooker other than the MCB at the consumer unit Code 2? Kitchen Light fitting un earthed Code 1?
Current guidelines say 'unsatisfactory' assessment for a report with code 1 or code 2 defects.
I have to say that I'm amazed that you're asking this especially as you say that you're carrying out PIR's and I'm also amazed that you've never stumbled upon the guidance?
I have to say that I'm amazed that you're asking this especially as you say that you're carrying out PIR's and I'm also amazed that you've never stumbled upon the guidance?
A
arcbrightmike
I have, I have downloaded all of the best practice guides its just I didnt think to consult them when carrying out these. I was just thinking about it too much. Thanks for your help and putting me back on the right track.
No problem, they're good guides and always give you something to point to if you ever need a bit of back-up.
brucelee
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Hi IQ
great advice as usual
so if code 1 immediatley isolate and requires urgent attention with a unsatisfactory on the report would you include a danger notification with the pir
code 2 requires improvement but does not need isolating
when recommending interval for next pir if the pir you carried out was having the obsevations and recommendations corrected then is it down to the inspector to decide next interval would you give a shorter interval for the next inspection and test to see if the necessarry works had been completed
then if its been carried out give a new pir with a increased interval or is ai all down to the inspectors
discretion
The interval between inspections is always subject to rectification of all code 1 and code 2 defects and it also depends on the age, type of use, quality of maintenance of the installation etc.
When you think about it, as the inspector, you are saying 'this installation is satisfactory for continued service' and by specifying the next inspection date, you are sticking your neck out somewhat!
It would have to be an immaculate, fairly new domestic installation for me to go anywhere near the recommended interval of 10 years!
It's a similar deal on commercial for a full 5-year interval.
When you think about it, as the inspector, you are saying 'this installation is satisfactory for continued service' and by specifying the next inspection date, you are sticking your neck out somewhat!
It would have to be an immaculate, fairly new domestic installation for me to go anywhere near the recommended interval of 10 years!
It's a similar deal on commercial for a full 5-year interval.
The recommended interval until the next inspection should be made conditional upon all the Code 1 and Code 2 departures being rectified without undue delay.
You can put that on your report or in a covering letter to the person ordering the work.
Stickers should still be applied to DB's with the your chosen 'next inspection due' date.
brucelee
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yes this is what i was referring to Iq
conditional upon them being rectified so if not rectified then the report and interval not valid if not rectified
cheers Iq you have a wealth of knowledge you just jogged my memory last june exam was a while ago lol
just got used to these regs and somebody is changing them lol
conditional upon them being rectified so if not rectified then the report and interval not valid if not rectified
cheers Iq you have a wealth of knowledge you just jogged my memory last june exam was a while ago lol
just got used to these regs and somebody is changing them lol
It's never ending! 
I use easycert and overprint my unsatisfactory certs with the word 'unsatisfactory'
It's not the first time someone has tried to tippex out the 'un' from unsatisfactory and hand it in
This way they can't do it easily. It also galvanises the mind of the landlord when you hand the tenant a copy (after giving the landlord time to respond)
It's not the first time someone has tried to tippex out the 'un' from unsatisfactory and hand it in
This way they can't do it easily. It also galvanises the mind of the landlord when you hand the tenant a copy (after giving the landlord time to respond)
D
demkap
hi guys was wondering what code you would give a consumer unit with no rcd protection??? code 1 0r 4???
demetri
demetri
S
Sintra
It really depends on what version of 7671 it was installed to.
D
demkap
explain more so if they had 60898 fuses?
D
Deleted member 26818
There is no requirement for Consumer Units to be protected by an RCD, so no code at all.
You should note and code each instance where RCD protection is required, but is not present
For instance:
for circuits of a location containing a bath or shower,
for socket-outlets intended for general use by ordinary persons,
for socket-outlets used for mobile equipment outdoors,
and for cables concealed in walls at a depth less than 50mm.
Most would warrent a code 4 or 2, depending upon how dangerous you consider the lack of RCD protection to be, and to which edition the installation, and any additions or alterations were conducted to.
You should note and code each instance where RCD protection is required, but is not present
For instance:
for circuits of a location containing a bath or shower,
for socket-outlets intended for general use by ordinary persons,
for socket-outlets used for mobile equipment outdoors,
and for cables concealed in walls at a depth less than 50mm.
Most would warrent a code 4 or 2, depending upon how dangerous you consider the lack of RCD protection to be, and to which edition the installation, and any additions or alterations were conducted to.
S
Sintra
60898 is the BS number for MCB's not fuses.
Hi Demetri,
Have you carried out many periodic inspections?
Your questions worry me slightly, talking of 'consumer units without RCD protection' , '60898 fuses' and then deliberating between a code 1 and a code 4 to allocate to a defect?
Maybe your questions are academic and you're doing the 2391-10?
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