PIR codes

[Johno]

Code 4

 

[Guest123]

The PDF that Steve has sourced is the ESC version 2a - and is the same version as on their website. It blabbers on about sockets likely to be powering outdoor equipment. I wish the ESC ( or a another ) would issue a more recent version that addresses the issues TODAY. For Example is the lack of an RCD on the lighting circuit a Code 1 , Code 2 , Code 3 or Code 4. Please help ...

You as someone who carries out PI reporting, need to think about why you think a 'lighting circuit' needs or doesn't need RCD protection. what is it about the circuit that you think needs or doesn't need RCD protection, what regs (if any) are involved etc.

 

[AllertonEPS]

That's why I'm asking the question - It is not my opinion that counts - it is the Regs opinion - I can have a personal opinion but when that opinion has a huge financial impact - it is not appropriate to have a personal opinion - the opinion has to be a universal opinion - hence my addition to this thread.

So your comment about questioning my knowledge is not appropriate - I just need a little guidance as to what others consider appropriate Codes for Lighting circuits without RCD protection. Maybe the penny hasn't dropped with me - but it is obviously a Code 4 issue, but was just wondering whether it should be any higher.

 

[Guest123]

I wasn't questioning your knowledge, just trying to stimulate thoughts about why a particular circuit may or may not need additional protection via an RCD. All PIR's are one persons personal interpretation of the regs, 2 people would not produce the same report on the same installation.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

That's why I'm asking the question - It is not my opinion that counts - it is the Regs opinion - I can have a personal opinion but when that opinion has a huge financial impact - it is not appropriate to have a personal opinion - the opinion has to be a universal opinion - hence my addition to this thread.

So your comment about questioning my knowledge is not appropriate - I just need a little guidance as to what others consider appropriate Codes for Lighting circuits without RCD protection. Maybe the penny hasn't dropped with me - but it is obviously a Code 4 issue, but was just wondering whether it should be any higher.

A lighting circuit may need RCD protection if it is part of a TT system,has cables buried at <50mm...or is in a special location.....the code applicable would depend on which of those requirements was not met....there are plenty of lighting circuits which do not require any RCD protection....so I cant see how such a general question can be relevant.

 

[AllertonEPS]

Thanks WirePuller - You say that 'plenty of lighting circuits do not require RCD protection' - I think the opposite - I can't think of many older installations that would meet the criteria of not requiring an RCD. Plently unearthed conduiting or cables plastered straight into the walls less than 50mm. Therefore most would require an RCD ie Code 2. Hence my original post ...

 

[IQ Electrical]

There can never be a definitive code for a given scenario as the scenario's are infinite, you use your judgement as a competent person, a mini risk assessment if you like and then you apply a code.

 

[Johno]

Though there are some circumstances that can be grey areas and require personal judgement, most are obvious ie. code 4 = not to current regs but poses no danger.

So to me a lighting circuit with cables in wall = code 4


There is a guidance leaflet out, I think its ESC which gives plenty of examples.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Thanks WirePuller - You say that 'plenty of lighting circuits do not require RCD protection' - I think the opposite - I can't think of many older installations that would meet the criteria of not requiring an RCD. Plently unearthed conduiting or cables plastered straight into the walls less than 50mm. Therefore most would require an RCD ie Code 2. Hence my original post ...

The regs are not rectrospective,if an install complied with the regs when it was installed,but does not meet the current requirements of bs 7671,in most cases the code would be 4.
A lighting circuit in a commercial property surface wired and on a TN system would not require RCD protection.
A lighting circuit in a domestic property surface wired would not require RCD protection.If that circuit included a bath/shower room,that would be a code 4.
A lighting circuit with buried cables wired prior to the 17th edition (2008)did not require RCD protection,it was safe then and it's safe now...therefore code 4.
RCD protection cannot be a substitute for lack of adequate earthing....if a lighting system with class 1 fittings does not incorporate an earth that would be a code 2 or even a code 1 if there was evidence of a low IR or failing insulation....Lack of RCD to such a circuit ( even if it is required) is a different issue altogether.

 

[AllertonEPS]

Thanks guys - all helpful comments

 

[morph]

agree with Wire puller , except the bathroom light bit, i would code 2 if supplymentary bonding not in place as well , unless before 17th, so if installed at 17th or later and it was all bonded then code 4, but if not all bonded then code 2.

gotta love the regs

The regs are not rectrospective,if an install complied with the regs when it was installed,but does not meet the current requirements of bs 7671,in most cases the code would be 4.
A lighting circuit in a commercial property surface wired and on a TN system would not require RCD protection.
A lighting circuit in a domestic property surface wired would not require RCD protection.If that circuit included a bath/shower room,that would be a code 4.
A lighting circuit with buried cables wired prior to the 17th edition (2008)did not require RCD protection,it was safe then and it's safe now...therefore code 4.
RCD protection cannot be a substitute for lack of adequate earthing....if a lighting system with class 1 fittings does not incorporate an earth that would be a code 2 or even a code 1 if there was evidence of a low IR or failing insulation....Lack of RCD to such a circuit ( even if it is required) is a different issue altogether.

 

[baldsparkies]

Sorry to butt in lads, but this is on the thread as a code 4. If true, it would cover a problem I have been mentioning regarding a pre 2008 install of NS/ Heaters with a 30ma rcd as the mainswitch.

16 Absence of RCD protection for cables installed at a depth of less than 50 mm from a surface of a wall or partition where the cables do not incorporate an earthed metallic covering, are not enclosed in earthed metalwork, or are not mechanically protected against penetration by nails and the like.

If this is so, then the absence of the RCD would only rate a code 4 in these circumstance. (That would also be my thoughts) would you lads agree ??

 

[Guest123]

On a PIR, yes.

 

[baldsparkies]

Thanks Lenny,
An installation from 8 years ago has recieved a so called upgrade using a consumer unit with a single 30ma rcd. it feeds 6 N/S Heaters and an immersion heater.
These have been put into several flats that are tennanted by old age pensioners. Ever since the rcd install the pensioners are being left without overnight charge as several of the rcd's have intermitently tripped when the E7 has been energised at night. There are no faults with any of the system to cause this, so It looks like the rcd's just don't like being energised under load. Several sparkies have visited but the problem remains. My own feelings are to hell with the rcd's, fit a mainswitch and give these poor pensioners heat before they end up with hypothermia. I am a supporter of rcd's, but they can sometimes do more harm than good and this is a case in proof as far as I am concerned. (Rant over)

 

[IQ Electrical]

The better way would be RCBO's and you'd find an end to the tripping problems too as any imbalance on load would not be summed at the main switch rcd.

 

[AllertonEPS]

Have you checked the Immersion Heater coil - That would be the most likely cause of the RCD tripping - Check the MOhm to Earth ...

 

[baldsparkies]

Immersion my first port of call but nope its good, and remember this is more than one property with the same problem. rcbo's spot on except for ££££££££s. I may fit a timed delayed as an option, seeing as tripping only occurs on the initial energising of the E7. But why have an rcd in the first place me thinks ???

 

[darking]

Well several things, I prefer best practice guide 4 on reccomendation codes, secondly you do not "Fail" an installation doing a PIR it is either satisfactory/unsatisfactory, and I would agree labelling is a 2 ie needing improvement.

Periodics are not for the new electrician, even if you did your 2391 course as part of your training, you need in depth knowledge of the type of installation you are testing.

You also requires a good understanding of the regs and their relationship to installation requirements, so that you are not guessing or misunderstanding those two columns of tick boxes in the schedule of inspection and dozen or so columns in your schedule of test results.

Finally, good as these forums are, you need a process of verification in place so that any grey areas or inaccuracies can be rectified. If you are self employed, send a copy now and then of any certificate to your accrediting body

 

[Rochelle]

there is no way i would fail an installation because of this, i would put that down as a code 4.

 

[arcbrightmike]

Does anyone out there code 1 cables installed a depth less than 50mm? I have been coding them as 1 for a few 1st floor flats that i have carried out PIRs on that are going to be rented out and one is a change of occupancy. I feel this is quite a high risk because when new tenants move in, they may be hanging pictures, attaching things in the kitchen. When coding things a 2 for some reason my client thinks that it isnt very important


Here are some examples of why I think it is important


I remember being told a story about someone had drilled a magnetic knife holder to the tiled wall above the work surface in the kitchen, and the user kept getting tingles when torching it but thought nothing of it. One day they were doing some washing up with one hand in the sink which was earthed, went to take a knife off of the holder and received a fatal shock from it. Now if it had RCD protection it would have saved them or even alerted the person attaching the holder to the wall by tripping out.


Another example is of the family of immigrants living in rented accommodation. The last winter was a cold one, so cold that this man had to try and heat his bathroom by running an extension from another room to the bathroom plugged in a heater and put it on a shelf above the bath so that his wife and child could have a bath. The heater fell in and killed them both. If there was RCD protection I'm sure there would have been more of a chance that they would have lived.


The world is full of people who know nothing about electrical safety, there is always going to be one person who does these dangerous things. An RCD is the first defence in the way of safety.