RIP - Winston Churchill

[Des 56]

OK maybe it's more about striking a balance then, and remembering the person for what they stood out for the most.
Harold Shipman may have healed the sick, but that was his job. Thousands of GPs heal the sick every day without special recognition. Overall though Shipman was a terrible GP because he killed his patients, which is what he will be remembered for.
Likewise Jimmy Saville nearly went down in history for all his charity work, until it came out that he was history's most profligate nonce, and he'll be remembered as that instead.

Winston Churchill is most often remembered as the prime minister who won the war; there have been several other prime ministers who have upset the miners.

Sorry to have to disrupt this thread again
I know it was set up to honour a person and maybe the rest of the posts will reflect the sentiment of the opening post


however I want to respond to the above

Your quote about the miners misses the whole point I have made in this thread
It was not to attack the person who many adore,it was to point out,for good or bad, that he was more than just the war hero,when he is remembered,it is right that we remember him for all his actions, not just the ones that sit comfortable with the people

Yes politicians of all sorts have screwed not only the miners but most workers over the years,it is going on now with this industry
That is not the point

It was an industrial dispute that could have meant life or death to those workers (if they accepted the owners actions) they had to do what was necessary to survive

Unlike all other political leaders,this man Churchill turned the British army out in battle mode against his own people in an industrial dispute,that can never be forgotten when he his saluted for his achievement's

 

[trev]

there have been several other prime ministers who have upset the miners.

So that makes his actions acceptable?
Edit
Beaten to it by Des

 

[specs]

A great man, he also saw the coming of Islamic terrorists.

 

[Guest77]

A great man, he also saw the coming of Islamic terrorists.

What about Catholic terrorists? did he see the coming of them?

 

[Guest77]

Sorry to have to disrupt this thread again
I know it was set up to honour a person and maybe the rest of the posts will reflect the sentiment of the opening post


however I want to respond to the above

Your quote about the miners misses the whole point I have made in this thread
It was not to attack the person who many adore,it was to point out,for good or bad, that he was more than just the war hero,when he is remembered,it is right that we remember him for all his actions, not just the ones that sit comfortable with the people

Yes politicians of all sorts have screwed not only the miners but most workers over the years,it is going on now with this industry
That is not the point

It was an industrial dispute that could have meant life or death to those workers (if they accepted the owners actions) they had to do what was necessary to survive

Unlike all other political leaders,this man Churchill turned the British army out in battle mode against his own people in an industrial dispute,that can never be forgotten when he his saluted for his achievement's

Brilliantly pointed out.

 

[specs]

What about Catholic terrorists? did he see the coming of them?

no great man can foresee everything, look at me, I didn't foresee being late home for my dinner tonight.

 

[Adam W]

So which prime minister was the one who was the champion of the miners?

I can see this thread turning into another realist vs socialist argument.

 

[Silly Sausage]

I can see this thread turning into another realist vs socialist argument.

Hahaha, I quite like that!

Realists; the rich getting ever richer at every one elses expense, and couldn't give a sh!t.
Socialists; the poor getting ever poorer from being fooked by the Realists, but do give a sh!t.

 

[Adam W]

Hahaha, I quite like that!

Realists; the rich getting ever richer at every one elses expense, and couldn't give a sh!t.
Socialists; the poor getting ever poorer from being fooked by the Realists, but do give a sh!t.

No, it's more a case of everyone getting richer vs everyone getting poorer.

I'm not "the rich" BTW.

Speaking of 'great prime ministers'...

[video=youtube;pdR7WW3XR9c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdR7WW3XR9c[/video]

 

[Engineer54]

As a peacetime prime minister, he made some absolutely catastrophic cock up's, the worst one as far as the country was concerned was to tie sterling to the gold standard of the time. That one nearly accomplished what Hitler failed to achieve, ....finish Britain off for good!!

 

[Engineer54]

No, it's more a case of everyone getting richer vs everyone getting poorer.

I'm not "the rich" BTW.

Speaking of 'great prime ministers'...

You must have really fallen hook, line and sinker for the Tory propaganda if you honestly think that everyone getts richer!!

No, ...and you never will be either, if you still can't see the wood for the tree's!! lol!!

Great if you were rich to start with, otherwise you would have been paying out more tax in real terms at the end of her over extended term of office than before she came in to office!! And that after the majority of our public owned companies had been sold off too.... Every tax cut/concession she made that affected the so-called working class, was clawed back and then some, not so with the tax cuts directed towards the much better off!!

 

[Maddison]

You are very quick (with what seems to be a fair bit of foul language) to insult me for pointing out that not everything we know about an hero is always so cut and dried

In fact I believe and accept that he was an heroic figure to millions for his contribution in the war years and those millions still remember with gratitude the role he played and I for one applaud them for being true to their history
He was the perfect type or character to lead Britain during dire times and I, not being a German, appreciate that his leadership during those years was vital and helped the country succeed

Now back to what I intended,to show that not all is roses in the Churchill garden

As a politician before and after the war he was an abject failure,even the appreciative electorate dumped him because he did not have the talent that would be needed for a leader in times of peace
He was a single minded,win at all costs figure,that happened to be the character of that man of privilege

That type of character was also the reason 30+ years before WW2 that he is not remembered here with so much gusto
The tactics he used successfully to help the country win WW2 were the same he used to win against workers trying to survive poverty,and I mean starvation type poverty,when there was a strike in the mining industry that closed a pit

My fathers description of the events that tarnish the man went along these lines
The reaction of the mine owners to the strike was to sack 800+ workmen who were not on strike in order to put them all in their place
They cared not for the people,only the profit margin that could be squeezed from them,remember there was not a social security net for these people just despair

Also remember at this time the worker had to live in the mine owners propety,eat food bought from the mineowners shop and were but slaves in all but name in this wonderful country that Churchill would go on to lead

The miners fought with the only weapon they had,their labour,they went on strike throughout the area
Churchill being the Home secretary in far away London agreed to assist the mine owners to defeat the workers by sending in hundreds of mounted police from a county force far away from that area

The mounted police obviously acting under instruction from above were described as acting like an invasion force with brutal tactics against ordinary folk who dare protest

The people in the area fought back and control was lost by that force and request was made to Churchill for armed troops to put down these people
He dispatched hundreds of troops to the area and the community was bullied into submission
He would have little hestitation in permitting the use of the live ammunition that they carried and would have won this battle with whatever it took to do so,that just so happened to be the character that served him and the country well years later

His actions in WW2 were heroic,the same actions against his own people years before can only be described as shameful
That is the reason he may not be so endearing here,however,that is not to say that I don't respect the people who hold the man in awe,they just happen to have a different view of the man to me

when i said forget the little **** i was referring to things outside of wartime.. apologies if i came across rude that wasnt my intentions just believe that although some of his decisions were wrong as a pm can you imagine what could have been if we had lost that war... civilians would have been butchered if germans made it i through.. people wouldnt have had jobs they would have.been slaves. but as you said each to their own

 

[andyelectric]

A man who's dad was a Lord, Chancellor of the exchequor, and a member of the Duke of Marlboroughs (off top of my head so may have the wrong one) family.

Without dismissing Churchills wartime achievements, there is not a chance in the world he would have been able to get to the position of Prime Minister without his aristocractic upbringing. And as others have said, outside wartime a true tory supporting the rich and smashing the poor at every opportunity.

 

[tex431]

I agree, more Tory propaganda why keep bring it up? The sooner people relies the government only look out for themselves and there cronies the better. They are your worst enemy.

 

[Octopus]

So which prime minister was the one who was the champion of the miners?

I can see this thread turning into another realist vs socialist argument.

I can see that my thread had been ruined!

 

[Octopus]

A man who's dad was a Lord, Chancellor of the exchequor, and a member of the Duke of Marlboroughs (off top of my head so may have the wrong one) family.

Without dismissing Churchills wartime achievements, there is not a chance in the world he would have been able to get to the position of Prime Minister without his aristocractic upbringing. And as others have said, outside wartime a true tory supporting the rich and smashing the poor at every opportunity.

Was he doing that when he was a Liberal?

 

[andyelectric]

Yes, Churchill was a Liberal at one point. But that was when they indulged in "laissez faire" liberalism akin to modern tory thinking. The Liberal reforms of the early 1900's were in coalition with the labour party and I wonder out of Lib/Lab who were committed to the reforms. And indeed Churchill later switched to the Tories as Labour became, more powerful and the Liberals were sidelined.

 

[amckay]

Winston Churchill's decisions won us the second world war. No doubt about it.
Now whether all the decisions he made were right or wrong, is another matter.

Many people simply do not know that Winston Churchill IS responsible for more wartime deaths than Adolf Hitler's concentration camps. In a bid to help the people of Britain, he diverted dozens upon dozens of merchant ships from India and sending them to UK. These ships were carrying foodstuffs and in aiding england to feed came the cost of dire malnourishment and starvation causing the death India around 6 million citizens in just 3years -that is more indians dead than Jews in the same timescale.

When I look at the state of the uk now, both financially and socially, I think I'd rather had lost the war and maybe things would be different now.

But Winston did what was best for his country, and he won. Kudos for that.

I also admire Adolf Hitler's actions in political term's but what he did to the Jews was unforgivable.

RIP Winston Churchill

 

[trev]

Winston Churchill's decisions + some catastrophic decisions by the German high command + massive economic and military assistance from the US won us the second world war.

Some other facts added to your original statement for added realism. Remember the "Give us the tools and we will do the job" speech?

 

[amckay]

Some other facts added to your original statement for added realism. Remember the "Give us the tools and we will do the job" speech?

Yes that's true

 

[trev]

I can see that my thread had been ruined!

The thing is mate, if I started a thread saying RIP Nye Bevan you would find something to find fault with him about and it would probably turn into something like this has.
I probably wouldn't complain about it though.

 

[Octopus]

The thing is mate, if I started a thread saying RIP Nye Bevan you would find something to find fault with him about and it would probably turn into something like this has.
I probably wouldn't complain about it though.

A lot of people would say Nye who?

 

[Adam W]

The thing is mate, if I started a thread saying RIP Nye Bevan you would find something to find fault with him about and it would probably turn into something like this has.
I probably wouldn't complain about it though.

I doubt it, it doesn't seem to happen that way around. When Thatcher died the left were jumping up and down, clapping their hands together and singing 'ding dong the witch is dead', but when Bob Crow died he was shown nothing but respect.

 

[Guest77]

I doubt it, it doesn't seem to happen that way around. When Thatcher died the left were jumping up and down, clapping their hands together and singing 'ding dong the witch is dead', but when Bob Crow died he was shown nothing but respect.

Not just the left, most of the country, except the far right and the rich.

 

[Engineer54]

Not just the left, most of the country, except the far right and the rich.

Now i wonder why that was??