smoke alarms compulsary on a board change

[ExArmy]

an electrician i know (who likes to talk alot) seems to think that it's a must to fit mains smoke alarms when the board is changed. I don't think this is true...?

 

[Plonker 3]

No they are not, I asked the exact same question a couple of weeks ago, some good guidance was received though.

http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...al-forum/59606-db-change-smoke-detectors.html

 

[D Skelton]

It's not, he's talking out his rear end.

 

[topquark]

Not true. Just changing the board doesn't require adding smokes.

 

[ExArmy]

thanks for clearing that up, my thoughts exactly.

next question, i'm rewiring a new extension and kitchen is being modified (has been knocked through into old diner) do i need to install A)a smoke detector in the extension, and B) a heat detector in the kitchen, C) both on a dedicated circuit and interlinked?

 

[Octopus]

thanks for clearing that up, my thoughts exactly.

next question, i'm rewiring a new extension and kitchen is being modified (has been knocked through into old diner) do i need to install A)a smoke detector in the extension, and B) a heat detector in the kitchen, C) both on a dedicated circuit and interlinked?

Check with building control as they are the ones who will hold back the completion cert.

I recently installed 2 smokes - 1 in the hall and 1 on the landing at the direction of LABC. The extension was at the rear and they didn't ask for a heat alarm despite it being a kitchen/dining/conservatory!

 

[ACL]

Murdoch is right, Building Control will specify what is required. Usually it's stated on the plans that get submitted.
Always work to the plans!

 

[Merl]

Building Control will most likely want mains interlinked smoke alarms installed. As Murdoch said check with them, or the builder he should have a spec for the work on the extension and where the alarms are to go.

 

[Merl]

I'm way too slow at this typing lark!!!

 

[Darkwood]

Also get the talkative electrician on this forum... if hes that confident in his knowledge it would be interesting to see him shot down and silenced a bit on here

 

[topquark]

thanks for clearing that up, my thoughts exactly.

next question, i'm rewiring a new extension and kitchen is being modified (has been knocked through into old diner) do i need to install A)a smoke detector in the extension, and B) a heat detector in the kitchen, C) both on a dedicated circuit and interlinked?

As Murdoch says, check the drawings/BC.

I don't recall anything in Part B about mandating heat alarms (I know they are advised) and smokes are only required usually in the communal escape areas (hall and landing normally). If they are required by plans/BC then they must be interlinked with any existing ones though.

 

[i=p/u]

well a house i finished recently, yes myself , i added a heat alarm in living room as the architet specified a smoke but if you read the small print footnotes, they will say follow bs5266 at current time

 

[ExArmy]

will check with BC in the morning. the builder has showm me some plans, it says smoke alarms must be fitted in accordance with regulation x or words to that effect but theres nothing on the drawings showing what they want.
also why does it say they have to be on their own circuit?? i was always taught to put on the lighting circuit so the tennants couldn't switch them off! makes sense to have them on the lighting circuit if you ask me, then if they are off you know they are off cos it's dark...
infact can someone explain why mains interlinked smoke alarms are better than battery smoke alarms?

 

[i=p/u]

cause they are interlinked ad they last longer.. i put them on lighting circuit

 

[Guitarist]

Better to speak directly to LBC. Often the architect will spec what they like rather than what BC actually require.

- - - Updated - - -

Own circuit or regularly used lighting circuit both fine mate.

 

[topquark]

will check with BC in the morning. the builder has showm me some plans, it says smoke alarms must be fitted in accordance with regulation x or words to that effect but theres nothing on the drawings showing what they want.
also why does it say they have to be on their own circuit?? i was always taught to put on the lighting circuit so the tennants couldn't switch them off! makes sense to have them on the lighting circuit if you ask me, then if they are off you know they are off cos it's dark...
infact can someone explain why mains interlinked smoke alarms are better than battery smoke alarms?

Interlinking is simply so that all occupants are alerted, irrespective of where the fire/smoke/heat/CO is first detected. The AICO range has an add on that can tell you which device triggered the alert (in similar way to zoning on a panel does).

 

[ExArmy]

yeah i''ll agree with the interlinking, but can you not get battery interlinked smoke alarms?
and for my exstension tomorrow it does specify on the plans that they are to be installed on a dedicated circuit, but i am going to ask BC if it's ok to put on a lighting circuit.

 

[topquark]

Not that I'm aware of. Just pair them with the lighting for that area/room and use wireless interlink ones.

 

[topquark]

Aico 160 series: Smoke Alarms Mains + Lithium Back Up

 

[Jimmy Boy]

I can't see them allowing battery ones on an new extension, I agree with previous posts on the subject of them being on a commonly used lighting circuit so you know they are tripped, you will notice a light off, but if the dedicated circuit goes down on the smokes and your away for a few days the back up will be depleted and you may not know they are fubared, but then the regs do like as many circuits as poss on their own breaker..so I can see that point as well.
J

 

[ExArmy]

so from what i've read so far tonight (electricians guide to the building regs) it looks like i need to fit one at the bottom of the stairs and the top of the stairs. no reg states i have to install a HD in the kitchen it's just advised

 

[ExArmy]

another thing, I always thought it was acceptable to wire it in T&E for radio bases and 3 core if interlinking. i've used red stuff when i had it provided but never bothered buying it for my own jobs, am i right in thinking that the use or red cable is only advised, and not mandatory?
and another thing, page 123 of the electricians guide to the building regs it says

"otherwise, fire alarm system cables generally are required to be fire resistant and segregated per BS5839-1 and BS5839-6 to minimise adverse effects from :

installation cable faults, fire on other circuits, electromagnetic interference and mechanical damage"

so whats all this about?

 

[Jimmy Boy]

another thing, I always thought it was acceptable to wire it in T&E for radio bases and 3 core if interlinking. i've used red stuff when i had it provided but never bothered buying it for my own jobs, am i right in thinking that the use or red cable is only advised, and not mandatory?
and another thing, page 123 of the electricians guide to the building regs it says

"otherwise, fire alarm system cables generally are required to be fire resistant and segregated per BS5839-1 and BS5839-6 to minimise adverse effects from :

installation cable faults, fire on other circuits, electromagnetic interference and mechanical damage"

so whats all this about?

This is not my field but it's not a fire alarm system ? Thats a different ball game, FP200 is the usual I see for those systems
J

 

[Dave 85]

I've never known FP200 (the red stuff) to be used on a domestic job. Balls to what the regs say just use 3c&e

 

[topquark]

If you run alarm cables (the signalling one, in particular) alongside another cable you can get "false triggering" due to induction. Used to be particularly noticeable if you ran a lighting circuit with florries alongside the alarm cable.

BTW I think that if run from the lighting circuit it should have a separate means of isolation (not a reg, but in the on site guide), the ability to remove the head from base should satisfy that.

 

[ExArmy]

This is not my field but it's not a fire alarm system ? Thats a different ball game, FP200 is the usual I see for those systems
J

yep your right, it's been a long night i missed the paragraph before:

"other than for large houses, the cable for the power supply to each self contained unit and for the interconnections between self contained units need have no fire survival properties, and needs no special segregation"

but i'd still like to know the line on red sheathed cable for smoke/heat detectors. is it compulsory? ( i really hope it isn't!)

 

[sedgy34]

The bloke who talks alot is talkin out his arse!
No need to install smoke alarms on a db change wwhatsoever if you rewire a property it's best to install mains smokes if customer goes for them
and extensions labc want to see smokes interlinked so they all work when they press the button on the smoke. That's there little toy cause they don't know anything else with electrics other than the logo on the cert

 

[i=p/u]

makes sense topqueer

 

[ExArmy]

and sorry for causing confusion, i when i say red stuff i meant red sheathed T&E or 3C&E as opposedto grey sheathed . i've never used FP apart from in college!

 

[i=p/u]

in residential no red fp cable , grey stuff, 3c

 

[spark 68]

For domestic grade D, category LD2 to BS5839-6:2004 on a 'normal' two story house existing property you need mains powered alarms, battery backed and all interlinked, either off of it's own circuit, or each off a well used lighting circuit, this may be wired in either T+E if radio link, or 3+E if hardwire interlinked.

Hallway,landing, and living room either optical or mixed mode and a heat alarm in the kitchen, this is from Aico's Electrical contractors hand book, it goes further to state that a heat alarm may be required in an integral (to house) garage, and either a mixed mode or ionisation alarm in bedrooms, the former point is the minimum required, the latter may be required by the LABC.

For new builds, as above except the living room may be optional.

I have just fitted Aico's wireless ones on a rental property, and BC wanted six in total fitting.

The LABC can be a law unto themselves, so it is better to ask them what they require.

Edit: forgot to answer the original question, No you don't have to fit smokes on a CU change.

 

[spark 68]

Ex-Army, who are you registered with ?

Elecsa have a downloadable BS5839-6:2004 installation cert, and some guidence on this subject, I cannot speak for other schemes.

The Aico website is a useful resource, I don't know if anyone has already posted the link, but here it is.

http://www.aico.co.uk/electrical-contractor.html

 

[topquark]

makes sense topqueer

I thought we'd agreed to keep our relationship secret?

 

[ExArmy]

spark-68 i'm with elecsa, thanks for the link that looks like all i will ever need to know about smoke alarms! anyway, today i phoned building control and they are coming out to look at it tomorrow morn but on the phone he said it looks like there is no requirement at all, it's just optional. they said as the extension is not altering the access to the building, the the kitchen is not being nknocked trhough into the downstairs circulation area, and there are no mains smokes installed currently then theres no need. god knows why it's on the plan, architect must have just felt like putting one in for the hell of it

 

[Octopus]

spark-68 i'm with elecsa, thanks for the link that looks like all i will ever need to know about smoke alarms! anyway, today i phoned building control and they are coming out to look at it tomorrow morn but on the phone he said it looks like there is no requirement at all, it's just optional. they said as the extension is not altering the access to the building, the the kitchen is not being nknocked trhough into the downstairs circulation area, and there are no mains smokes installed currently then theres no need. god knows why it's on the plan, architect must have just felt like putting one in for the hell of it

Good feedback, sadly missing from the majority of threads on here!

 

[ExArmy]

BC went there today, i was on a board change elsewhere but spoke to the builder and there is no requirement for mains smoke alarms. good job as the ceiling was already boarded!

 

[sedgy34]

BC went there today, i was on a board change elsewhere but spoke to the builder and there is no requirement for mains smoke alarms. good job as the ceiling was already boarded!

as i said in post 27