SWA Fly lead

Archy its not trolling please feel free to jump in, but be aware whats tripping everyone up is termanology on this.

a question was asked i answered but the question is terminology is the connection to the armour on SWA earthing or bonding, because earthing doesn't exost according to the regs but bonding does and i beleive this bonding is supplementory or aditional
 
I reckon this thread was more industrial than house basher so as you said earlier " pblec " to Mark on another thread best you get back in your box !
 
pblec said:
Archy its not trolling please feel free to jump in, but be aware whats tripping everyone up is termanology on this.

a question was asked i answered but the question is terminology is the connection to the armour on SWA earthing or bonding, because earthing doesn't exost according to the regs but bonding does and i beleive this bonding is supplementory or aditional
Click to expand...

It's your terminology that's mixed here mate.

So the term earthing don't exist? What is it called when you connect the CPC of a circuit to the earth bar than??
 
pblec said:
no please 54 when i get proved wrong i have to correct it so it can only improve me.

i'd guess there are plenty of people out there who don't know these things so its an educational process, we have to stay current and if it turns out i am correct with my assumptions then that can't be a bad thing as it shows some of you old timers on these boards have to be prepared to back up your statements rather than confuse us all with general coments
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pblec,

After 28 years in the industry as an electrician, you shouldn't really be having this conversation, ...but You are!!!
 
i have used the outer core of swa as a cpc but that wasn't the question

i couldn't use it as CPC when i first qualified as the firm i worked for didn't allow it and even now i won't - but that doesn't mean its wrong.

i'm sorry but what it does mean is you need to get your head in a regs book and refresh your knowladge a little, its not an insult i've just opened my green book tonight because of these forums.
 
Engineer54 said:
pblec,

After 28 years in the industry as an electrician, you shouldn't really be having this conversation, ...but You are!!!
Click to expand...

And you shouldn't be having it with a guy who's younger than the time you've been in this industry.
 
rule of thumb if you cant be bothered to work out is use the same size of earth cable to live conductors upto 16mm after that it is half
 
pblec said:
i have used the outer core of swa as a cpc but that wasn't the question

i couldn't use it as CPC when i first qualified as the firm i worked for didn't allow it and even now i won't - but that doesn't mean its wrong.

i'm sorry but what it does mean is you need to get your head in a regs book and refresh your knowladge a little, its not an insult i've just opened my green book tonight because of these forums.
Click to expand...

Read on mate read on. Ive said nothing wrong in this thread and if you think I have prove it with a erg and why,

and you havnt answered my question, what is it called when a CPC is connected to an earth bar because the term earthing doesn't exist?
 
sorry mate i was trying to be diplomatic, i'm new on the forum and their has been a few mistakes made in this topic.

as you may know people read on forums and look at the number of posts then beleive everything they say, which is a bad thing.

just because i've been at it for 28 years doesn't mean i know everything, you will find i'll ask some bloody stupid questions that apprentices will know but it may be something i've just taken for granted
 
pblec said:
sorry mate i was trying to be diplomatic, i'm new on the forum and their has been a few mistakes made in this topic.

as you may know people read on forums and look at the number of posts then beleive everything they say, which is a bad thing.

just because i've been at it for 28 years doesn't mean i know everything, you will find i'll ask some bloody stupid questions that apprentices will know but it may be something i've just taken for granted
Click to expand...

And I agree and so do all the old timers out there. We can't be expected to know it all and we don't, it's all a learning curve.
 
I think the answer to the original question is, just use some G/W at the same csa as your line conductors. Nowt wrong with over sizing a cable.

Or, make sure your terminations to enclosure are bomd proof then have a juicy G/W to the earth bar.

Piranaha nuts are the things you need.
 
yes its a learning curve so hopefuly tonight you've learned the new name for the main earth its the 'main protective bonding conductor' the term for connecting cpc's into the earth bar is 'termination of CPC's' and that parts of a circuit which are not used but may become live under a fault condition require 'supplementory bonding' and that i don't generaly ' use the SWA armoured sheath as a CPC'
and finaly i am a pain in the ---
 
pblec said:
yes its a learning curve so hopefuly tonight you've learned the new name for the main earth its the 'main protective bonding conductor' the term for connecting cpc's into the earth bar is 'termination of CPC's' and that parts of a circuit which are not used but may become live under a fault condition require 'supplementory bonding' and that i don't generaly ' use the SWA armoured sheath as a CPC'
and finaly i am a pain in the ---
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The fact you are still calling your main earthing conductor your main bonding conductor gives me a headache cause you fail to listen.

You are a pain the proverbial because you refuse to listen. I've been reading your other posts tonight, have a feeling we'll be seeing alot of you soon....oh the joy.
 
check your regs book page 167 544.1 amend 1 2011 - just remember it was you which said i described it wrong

and always a pleasure never a chore!
 
Does the adiabatic equation not calculate the minium CSA of a CPC for use with swa ? if so then how do i work out thes CSA of a sheet steel plate which is what all thes SWA cables are glanded into ???? I understand using that when your using a single SWA feeding a board for instance,it would be used to calculate the CSA of the armouring ,But when using the gland plate and it contains multiple cables i dont think this equation is applicable , i would have thouth it more likley to be a rule of thumb thing ????
 
pblec said:
yes its a learning curve so hopefuly tonight you've learned the new name for the main earth its the 'main protective bonding conductor' the term for connecting cpc's into the earth bar is 'termination of CPC's' and that parts of a circuit which are not used but may become live under a fault condition require 'supplementory bonding' and that i don't generaly ' use the SWA armoured sheath as a CPC'
and finaly i am a pain in the ---
Click to expand...
That's not the new name for the main earth.
That's the new name for a main equipotential bonding conductor.
There's been no change to the correct terminology for the main earth, it's still called an earthing conductor
 
pblec said:
check your regs book page 167 544.1 amend 1 2011 - just remember it was you which said i described it wrong

and always a pleasure never a chore!
Click to expand...

Your still wrong as that's describing a main bonding conductor, not a main earthing conductor. Again I stress two different things.
 
spin what is the name of that wire from the MET to DB on a TN S, what is the name of that green and yellow wire that comes from the grey service cut out to the DB on a TNC-S, what is the name of that wire from the sheath on a TN S supply that goes to the MET.

lets safely say i have probably got the terminology wrong, i'm here to learn and improve and i have already posted i may ask some dumb questions but you should know if i'm asking it others are thinking it.

domestic (always asume PME) main earth 16mm, bonding to services 10mm - thats not wrong so even though i may have got some fundemantal terms wrong i had to post that to confirm i do know a little and don't get my sizes wrong just terminology
 
From the MET to the DB is the 'main' earthing conductor.
The other two are 'supplier's' earthing conductors.
 
so there you have it i got a term wrong which could've been serious, but as has been pointed out if i used it on site everyone would've corrected my poor terminology.

what about the original question way back 7 pages ago did i get that wrong is it perfectly acceptable to use a metal case as a CPC as has been described.
 
So why have you listened to Spin in two posts (no offence Spin) and not me in a whole thread? What was I not saying that wasn't getting through? As we established last night, it's fine if you don't know but don't drag out a whole thread pretending when clearly you got your terminology wrong.
I've never disputed you don't know the sizes but the problem is because you got your terminology wrong you don't know the difference between earthing and bonding. And if you do than it's not clearly shown.
 
the difference is easy to explain. bondage is being tied to the bed. earthing is being handcuffed to a metal bed bolted to the floor.

sorry lads.couln't resist.
 
543.2.2 A protective conductor may consist of one or more of the following:
(i) A single core cable (minimum CSA 2.5mm² if mechanically protected, otherwise 4mm²)
(ii) A conductor in a cable
(iii) An insulated or bare conductor in a common enclosure with insulated live conductors (appears to indicate that sleeving is not required when terminating T&E in back boxes etc.)
(iv) A fixed bare or insulated conductor
(v) A metal covering, for example, the sheath, screen or armouring of a cable
(vi) A metal conduit, metallic cable management system or other enclosure or electrically continuous support system for conductors (conduit, trunking, tray or even basket)
(vii) an extraneous-conductive-part complying with Regulation 543.2.6. (Re-bar, RSJ, water pipe or metal casing of a machine or enclosure such as the metal casing of a DB)

The descriptions in brackets are my interpretation.
 
From BS 7671 definitions....

Exposed-conductive-part. Conductive part of equipment which can be touched and which is not normally live, but which can become live when basic insulation fails.
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The SWA armour is part of the electrical equipment, and so is an exposed-conductive-part. We earth exposed-conductive-parts so that if basic insulation fails enough current will flow to operate the protective device.



Extraneous-conductive-part. A conductive part liable to introduce a potential, generally Earth potential and NOT forming part of the electrical installation.
Click to expand...

We bond extraneous-conductive-parts to exposed-conductive-parts so that in the event of a fault everything will be at roughly the same potential and so reduce the risk of electric shock if two parts were touched simultaneously.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
spin has more posts than you so obviously knows more than you - thats the score on forums isn't it?

sorry guys been away to pick up my son for the hols, i don't know how you cope with that M25

yes i know i got it wrong in my terms i distinctly remember argueing this with a lecturer when i did a 16th course, so you think i would of learned!
 
wirepuller said:
I promise I will never ever,ever,ever pull someone up on this again....honest....if I do please have me shot.
Click to expand...

Well I can't turn my back on such flagrant flouting of terminology, please don't shoot.... ;)
 

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