Switch Panel upgrade

[atm84]

If an fuses for existing spare switched fuse unit within a switch panel is now obsolete (GEC Alsthom) then is it going to be a case of upgrading the whole panel if I want to add a new circuit?

That could turn a £500 job into about a £10k job.

I suspect I could get the parts off eBay but they probably aren't back by manufacturers warranty any more and don't want to install something that isn't legit.

 

[Plonker 3]

Have you tried these?

OBSOLETE CIRCUIT BREAKERS

 

[Knobhead]

How the hell can a fuse be obsolete? Find an alternative manufacturer that makes a fuse with the same specification.

A lot of our fuses were English Electric, English Electric is no more. The strange thing is Dorman Smith, Busman, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, all made the same type and to the same specification as the originals.

Should we have ripped the switchgear out if a fuse blew?

Bloody amateurs!

 

[atm84]

Of course a fuse can be obsolete, 1) one if the fuses are no longer made and 2) if the disconnection times do not meet those specified in BS 7671

 

[Plonker 3]

2) if the disconnection times do not meet those specified in BS 7671

Thats nothing to do with a obselete fuse, more to do with the design of the circuit.

Beside as Tony says lots of other MCBs will be compatible with what is already installed.

 

[atm84]

They aren't mcb. These are Switch Fuse Units using BS 88 fuses which fit into a unit that is no longer available.

 

[Plonker 3]

What exactly is it you need? A Bs 88 fuse or a whold switch fuse, fuse carrier?

 

[Engineer54]

The chances of not being able to find a direct replacement to a given manufactures fuse is to say the least remote!! All BS 88 fuses of the same size, type, and dimensions, will be just the same as any other manufactures fuse with the same data printed on the fuse. That's the whole point/idea behind having a British Standard. You'll also find that other EU based standard fuses are officially interchangeable with BS fuse types.

 

[Plonker 3]

Hve you contacted the manufacturer direct to find out if there is anything you can install that is compatible?

 

[atm84]

The manufacturer is no longer. The existing spare switch fuse is rated at 100 amps three phase. I need a 200 amp three phase. They are the type that pull out on a drawer. The existing one is GEC Alsthom and is circa 35 years old.

 

[Engineer54]

The manufacturer is no longer. The existing spare switch fuse is rated at 100 amps three phase. I need a 200 amp three phase. They are the type that pull out on a drawer. The existing one is GEC Alsthom and is circa 35 years old.

That would be called a ''Withdrawable switch fuse'' Do they pull out or wind out with a tool??

There are businesses out there that trade on older/obsolete equipment try googling. If this GEC Alsthrom system was a well liked/commonly used system, then the chances are, someone somewhere will have what you are looking for...

 

[atm84]

That would be called a ''Withdrawable switch fuse'' Do they pull out or wind out with a tool??

There are businesses out there that trade on older/obsolete equipment try googling. If this GEC Alsthrom system was a well liked/commonly used system, then the chances are, someone somewhere will have what you are looking for...

They just pull out. I have had a look on google but only manage to find second hand ones which have been 'reconditioned' at best. I will not install anything but brand new and which is backed by manufacturers warranty in order to cover my ---.

 

[Plonker 3]

You had better tell your customer that it will cost them £10,000 to change 3 fuses then. Then lose the job because someone is willing to use reconditioned parts.

 

[atm84]

I'd rather lose the job than lose my dignity when things go wrong.

#cowboy

 

[atm84]

I'd rather lose the job than lose my dignity when things go wrong.
By also changing the panel there will be spare ways for future additions later on.

 

[Engineer54]

They just pull out. I have had a look on google but only manage to find second hand ones which have been 'reconditioned' at best. I will not install anything but brand new and which is backed by manufacturers warranty in order to cover my ---.

Don't suppose you've even discussed this with your client then, because we all know what they are going to decide don't we!! Hmmm, (client Thinks....)10K or a couple of hundred, 10K or a couple of hundred, 10K, or a couple of hundred, ...... Let's try the reconditioned unit first shall we!!! ...lol!!

 

[atm84]

Don't suppose you've even discussed this with your client then, because we all know what they are going to decide don't we!! Hmmm, (client Thinks....)10K or a couple of hundred, 10K or a couple of hundred, 10K, or a couple of hundred, ...... Let's try the reconditioned unit first shall we!!! ...lol!!

I've just come off the phone to the the client. They said they would be happy if the panel was upgraded as it would also ensure that future spare ways are available. The want to expand the building in a year or so anyway and remodel the existing internal space. Now to get some quotes from panel manufacturers. Any recommendations? I've always been happy with Schneider.

 

[test electrical]

Well the only thing to do is inform the client of the two ways of doing it ie 500 or 5k and let him supply the switch fuse and write on the CERs equipment supplied by others (clients own equipment)
Do it all the time. The NIC inspectors or fine with that and so will the client or company.

 

[Plonker 3]

Well the only thing to do is inform the client of the two ways of doing it ie 500 or 5k and let him supply the switch fuse and write on the CERs equipment supplied by others (clients own equipment)
Do it all the time. The NIC inspectors or fine with that and so will the client or company.

Whatbhave they got to do with the relationship between the customer and client?

 

[atm84]

Well the only thing to do is inform the client of the two ways of doing it ie 500 or 5k and let him supply the switch fuse and write on the CERs equipment supplied by others (clients own equipment)
Do it all the time. The NIC inspectors or fine with that and so will the client or company.

Thanks for the advice. That's worth noting. I guess its how you explain it to the client, but my only concern with that would be if the client starts to think, 'hang on, this guy isn't happy installing this equipment and it isn't backed by warranty, should I really be buying it for him to install'.

 

[atm84]

Whatbhave they got to do with the relationship between the customer and client?

eh? the customer is the client.

 

[Engineer54]

I've just come off the phone to the the client. They said they would be happy if the panel was upgraded as it would also ensure that future spare ways are available. The want to expand the building in a year or so anyway and remodel the existing internal space. Now to get some quotes from panel manufacturers. Any recommendations? I've always been happy with Schneider.

That sounds like a cockeyed way of doing things, how are you going to size and spec this switchboard if you don't know what upgrades to the electrical system are going to be made. You could well end up in a similar position you are in now, just a couple of years down the line, ...eg spare cubicles of the wrong size etc!!

 

[atm84]

That sounds like a cockeyed way of doing things, how are you going to size and spec this switchboard if you don't know what upgrades to the electrical system are going to be made. You could well end up in a similar position you are in now, just a couple of years down the line, ...eg spare cubicles of the wrong size etc!!

Thats where I would specify an MCCB Panel board with a minimum of 25% spare capacity and use MCCB's.

 

[Engineer54]

Has the incoming DNO supply have enough capacity to allow for a 25% Spare future Capacity??

 

[Darkwood]

Atm84 - obsolete gear may warrant a reconditioned unit, many professional companies do do this and to a good standard, this attitude of new or nothing is very narrow minded, liasing with the customer is essential but scaremongering and giving him biased opinion based info is not professional.
Purchase a reconditioned unit fit it and jobs done, it seems your dipping in areas here where you lack experience so tread carefully, like some systems with removable drawer switchfuse gear there are limitations to how switchgear are arranged and manufacturers original spec' may for instance express 2 larger ampage drawers should be spaced apart by at least 1 chamber of lower rated.

Reading through it seems you are creating work here that isn't yet required and your unsure of what the sites future requirements may be, if your going to change it all make sure you fit a future proof set up in (within reason).

Is the site close to its max demand on existing supply yet etc .... this may warrant a larger scale and rated set-up fitting to pre-empt a supply upgrade, its pointless changing virtually like for like to find your in a similar problem 5yrs down the line because of poor forsight or lack of investigation.

 

[atm84]

I said 25% SPARE WAY capacity not 25% spare LOAD capacity. The incoming service head is rated at 800 amps Three Phase. I suspect there is approx 500 amps load but will be carrying out load monitoring for a min two week period to ascertain actual max demand but I think there should be plenty of spare LOAD capacity.

 

[atm84]

Atm84 - obsolete gear may warrant a reconditioned unit, many professional companies do do this and to a good standard, this attitude of new or nothing is very narrow minded, liasing with the customer is essential but scaremongering and giving him biased opinion based info is not professional.
Purchase a reconditioned unit fit it and jobs done, it seems your dipping in areas here where you lack experience so tread carefully, like some systems with removable drawer switchfuse gear there are limitations to how switchgear are arranged and manufacturers original spec' may for instance express 2 larger ampage drawers should be spaced apart by at least 1 chamber of lower rated.

Reading through it seems you are creating work here that isn't yet required and your unsure of what the sites future requirements may be, if your going to change it all make sure you fit a future proof set up in (within reason).

Is the site close to its max demand on existing supply yet etc .... this may warrant a larger scale and rated set-up fitting to pre-empt a supply upgrade, its pointless changing virtually like for like to find your in a similar problem 5yrs down the line because of poor forsight or lack of investigation.

My question is can reconditioned equipment be backed by Manufacturer's warranty? I suspect not. if it can then I will hold my hands up, but if not then I will not install it.

 

[Darkwood]

My question is can reconditioned equipment be backed by Manufacturer's warranty? I suspect not. if it can then I will hold my hands up, but if not then I will not install it.

The company who do the reconditioning will give a limited warranty usually 6-months is common which is still enough to show any issues with the gear, discussing the options first with client and saying he is still covered by a limited warranty on second-hand reconditioned gear may swing things to a simple cheap job in the context of the alternative.

I have sourced 2nd hand gear myself and used it while expressing to customer I cannot give any warranty of the gear but it saves thousands in the alternative options... this type of gear is usually well made and robust and were built like tanks mechanically hence companies recondition them, Id be more concerned about modern gear been recycled if obsolete as quality for durability has dropped over the decades.

 

[atm84]

Ok that is useful info. I could advise the client of this, but after our conversation, I think he may still want to go with a whole upgrade. Can you recommend any companies who can supply reconditioned switch fuses for GEC Alsthom gear?

 

[Darkwood]

Give these a ring 36months guarantee ... Our reconditioned switchgear comes with a 36 month guarantee | Slaters Electricals

I think your mind set is wrong regarding reconditioned gear of this nature, they don't wipe the dust off and regrease they engineer and replace any worn parts, lame springs etc, in essence as good as new hence this company give a better guarantee then the original manufacturer.

If you locate the part you need then I would in your shoes contact your client and express you have been put in contact with a reputable company and you have had a re-think and in the short term advise fitting the reconditioned unit but in the long term maybe look into making a full site analysis and draft up a proposal for a upgrade which can be better organised with site power downs than rushing a job through now..

This is why I said you lack experience in this area and not a knock at your competence but hopefully in future you could provide better solutions on the strength of what you may have picked up on this thread for your client. If unsure never talk off the cuff; any client will be happy if you say I have to make some phone calls etc to see if the gear can be sourced, then use the time to refine your knowledge of the equipment too.

 

[itselectric]

Op you started off wanting fuses to replace existing ones, but you then want to upgrade to 200 amps, so your switch would have to be upgraded to 200 amp therefore you have no option but to replace switch or upgrade
One of the companies I worked for needed to replace an obsolete switch, and Slaters came up with the goods, inside the switch was like brand new.

 

[atm84]

Op you started off wanting fuses to replace existing ones, but you then want to upgrade to 200 amps, so your switch would have to be upgraded to 200 amp therefore you have no option but to replace switch or upgrade
One of the companies I worked for needed to replace an obsolete switch, and Slaters came up with the goods, inside the switch was like brand new.

First of all I did not say that I wanted to replace any fuses in existing switch fuse unit. I said if fuses for existing switch fuse unit are obsolete then would it require an upgrade. There is currently no fuses in the existing switch fuse unit, hence how can I replace something that isn't there.

Like you say, its not a case of just fitting some bigger fuses, the whole switch fuse unit will need to be replaced or a whole panel upgrade.

The existing switch fuse unit is rated at 100 amp TP, I want to fit a 200 amp TP and I am looking at locating this.

That is why I am maybe going to have to upgrade. I have contacted Slaters so hopefully they will come back with something.

Ill keep you all posted.

 

[Simon-0116]

Try srs electrical worksop all sorts of new old stock

 

[Engineer54]

I said 25% SPARE WAY capacity not 25% spare LOAD capacity. The incoming service head is rated at 800 amps Three Phase. I suspect there is approx 500 amps load but will be carrying out load monitoring for a min two week period to ascertain actual max demand but I think there should be plenty of spare LOAD capacity.

That won't be a standard DNO supply then, is there is a site TX supplying this premisses

This is what you stated in your post...

Thats where I would specify an MCCB Panel board with a minimum of 25% spare capacity and use MCCB's.

Nothing about ''spare way'' only capacity!!

Another thing you'll need to consider, is that the MCCB's will require a far lower Zs value than the existing Switch fuses

 

[atm84]

That won't be a standard DNO supply then, is there is a site TX supplying this premisses

This is what you stated in your post...





Nothing about ''spare way'' only capacity!!

Another thing you'll need to consider, is that the MCCB's will require a far lower Zs value than the existing Switch fuses[/QUOT

Yes there is a site TX.

I need to double check with DNO that the fuses in the CT Chamber are rated at 800 amp, but I have been informed by the client that they are 800 amp. (They had a new meter fitted a couple of years back and that is how he knows). However I will be contacting the DNO to fully ascertain that this information is correct before any major works and will also be carrying out load monitoring, first of all on the cafeteria DB and also at the Main Panel to ensure that there is in fact spare load capacity for future expansion.

 

[snowhead]

Is this GEC Miniform you're looking at?;

http://www.scatco.co.uk/technicalinfo/miniform.pdf

 

[atm84]

Is this GEC Miniform you're looking at?;

http://www.scatco.co.uk/technicalinfo/miniform.pdf

Yes it is champion

 

[Knobhead]

Scatco are good to deal with. MiniForm is a doddle to extend.

You will find the transformer is 500KVA with a maximum O/P of 666.7A @433V so don’t be over confident you have XXXA spare capacity. A 800A fuseswitch is standard kit for 500KVA.

 

[atm84]

Scatco are good to deal with. MiniForm is a doddle to extend.

You will find the transformer is 500KVA with a maximum O/P of 666.7A @433V so don’t be over confident you have XXXA spare capacity. A 800A fuseswitch is standard kit for 500KVA.

I have been informed it is a 750kVA transformer and the fuses in the CT Chamber are sized at 800 amp. I will be contacting the DNO to get confirmation of this however.

 

[Knobhead]

I have been informed it is a 750kVA transformer and the fuses in the CT Chamber are sized at 800 amp. I will be contacting the DNO to get confirmation of this however.

750KVA on a dedicated circuit would have a 1200A SF, 1000A @433V.

I think a call to the DNO is in order. Don’t take this the wrong way, this could turn in to an expensive exercise. Get all the information you can first.

If the CT camber is on the bottom of the MiniForm 800A SF the cover only has 4 screws and is hinged at the bottom and will swing downwards. If you do have a look, be careful.