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And what authority do you have to be telling other contractors whats what ?
You need to step back from this.

I never tell other electrical contractors what's what. I've got no trouble whatsoever in confronting thieves however. This guy has charged the customer £150 for what may as well be a blank piece of paper. I don't believe for a minute that what I do is unreasonable. Giving someone a piece of your mind whether it's verbally or by writing isn't illegal and it sure as hell isn't immoral given the situation.
 
I never tell other electrical contractors what's what. I've got no trouble whatsoever in confronting thieves however. This guy has charged the customer £150 for what may as well be a blank piece of paper. I don't believe for a minute that what I do is unreasonable. Giving someone a piece of your mind whether it's verbally or by writing isn't illegal and it sure as hell isn't immoral given the situation.

Your intentions are honourable but its the customer who needs to instigate action , by telling trading standards for example.
Ever thought that this contractor can make a compliant to the NIC against you ?
I wont say any more but good luck.
 
Yet the NIC were still selling old pir certs after the EICR started and still telling their members to use them until march ?
Your fight should be with your scheme to get them kicked out

I've given up trying with the scam schemes, they don't care one jot! As long as they have their money, they're happy, and there's nothing any of us can do or say about it.

I'm totally with you, however the only people now with any power is us, if we don't take a stand, no one will.

I don't like the situation, but I've never been so angry with the state of our country and the way in which it's run. The politicians and people in big business (NIC and Elecsa included) stand there and pour out their golden fountains whilst the rest of us are just expected to lie their and catch it our mouths. I've had enough of drinking their bodily fluids to be honest and I for one am going to seize every opportunity presented to me to do something about stopping it!
 
Like biff said your intentions are honourable but please be careful for your own sake. If things are said and/or done when you hand deliver this letter the police could be all over you like a bad rash mate
 
LABC or NICEIC will not want to know. I recently contacted both over a NIC registered sparky changing a con unit and only filling out an EIC for his new shower circuit. Blanks missing from board, numerous errors on form. (max demand listed 100amp, main switch listed as 60898
2 pole...)
LABC asked me what exactly I wante them to do as the guy was registered with NICEIC so must be competant, NIC replied with an email to say they can't do anything with my say so, they need the 80 year old granny customer to complain to him direct then give him a chance to return and do it properly. If he wouldn't they MAY step in but can't even guarantee a site visit.
I had may ELECSA assessment yesterday, the scam man is very interested and now has a copy of his certs, dunno what he's going to do with them but he said h had clout with ECA and the part p review board.
 
Your intentions are honourable but its the customer who needs to instigate action , by telling trading standards for example.
Ever thought that this contractor can make a compliant to the NIC against you ?
I wont say any more but good luck.

Fair point and thank you. I did give the customer the details of our local TS bloke as I've had dealings with him before and found him very willing. The customer seemed interested in pursuing him but whether he does or not is up to him you're right.
 
'tis all abit confusing....

1) the trade is in a mess and no one in authority seems to want to do much about it.
2) Scam schemes just want the money so very unlikely to penalise one of thier members unless something fatal happens
3) as scam schemes wont clean up the trade (due to loosing money if they do) the only people left are the good/honest sparks to try and change things.
4) When a sparks (not just on this thread but in general) tries to make a stand they're advised not to as it's either:
a) a waste of time as scam schemes dont care
b) out of order grassing up a fellow tradesman.


So if scam schemes dont care, nameing/shameing is wrong, having a word is wrong and spreading the word is wrong...... How are things ever going to improve?

Not saying the OP is necessarily going about things the right way but someone's gotta stand up for the trade surely?
 
LABC or NICEIC will not want to know. I recently contacted both over a NIC registered sparky changing a con unit and only filling out an EIC for his new shower circuit. Blanks missing from board, numerous errors on form. (max demand listed 100amp, main switch listed as 60898
2 pole...)
LABC asked me what exactly I wante them to do as the guy was registered with NICEIC so must be competant, NIC replied with an email to say they can't do anything with my say so, they need the 80 year old granny customer to complain to him direct then give him a chance to return and do it properly. If he wouldn't they MAY step in but can't even guarantee a site visit.
I had may ELECSA assessment yesterday, the scam man is very interested and now has a copy of his certs, dunno what he's going to do with them but he said h had clout with ECA and the part p review board.

Not exactly crime of the century is it....he probably did a prefectly safe and compliant job just didn't fill out his cert properly. Why would either NICEIC or LABC waste time investigating somebody just because they fill out a cert wrong...who cares...
Out of interest...and this is a genuine question, what would you put in the max demand box? I always put 100amp and have never been pulled on it.
 
Although I see what your intensions are and to some what I agree, I think that less is more in this case.

Don't issue a letter from yourself, write it up for your customer for them to sign (so you have done the hard work for them), with a copy of both his and your certs, asking why they are so different and that you the second electrician says its incorrect and advises that the NIC shall be informed etc, etc, blah blah and requesting a refund.

It could be ended off that you the second electrician is prepared to discuss the issues if he disagrees with your findings.

The other thing to consider is, if they the first electrician have not paid the NIC the extra to be assessed on PIR's, the NIC will not give a monkeys and NO action will be taken.

Ah sod it, ask him what the hell he playing at!! LOL
 
Not exactly crime of the century is it....he probably did a prefectly safe and compliant job just didn't fill out his cert properly. Why would either NICEIC or LABC waste time investigating somebody just because they fill out a cert wrong...who cares...
Out of interest...and this is a genuine question, what would you put in the max demand box? I always put 100amp and have never been pulled on it.

No blanks in the front of the board? Live accessible parts? I'd think thats amongst one of the worst conditions you could leave a job in. I was also worried that the 9 or 10 errors evident on his test cert showed a certain lack of understanding of technical issues. Would you be happy employing a spark who didn't know the difference between a 60898 and a 60947-3?

Not to mention that if he only tests one circuit whilst changing a 10 way consumer unit he is going to finish the job a couple of hours quicker than someone who does the job properly. Therefore he is quite a lot cheaper than a good sparky and will get more work in the area because of this. So it follows that even more crappy work will be done by him and less work will be done by good electricians. We can't price jobs on a level playing field.
Oh, and it was a council grant job so you and me paid for it out of taxes...

It's never occurred to me to enter 100amps in the max demand box simply because it says 100amp on the fuse carrier because,
It's probably not a 100amp fuse in the carrier in my area and
Thats not the current max demand, thats the theoretical maximum current that could be pulled before the fuse blows. (although in reality it will be higher than the fuse rating)

I had a conversation with my ELECSA inspector about it yesterday and although he didn't condone the x0.4 rule of thumb he did allow that it was impractical to spend hours calculating it accurately.

What do you write when the carrier is unmarked? (mostly all unmarked in my area)
Surely if this was acceptable then they may as well have one combined box for max demand and supply overcurrent protective device?
Anyway, as far as the distributors are concerned, whatever the load, if the fuse hasn't blown the max demand is ok and they/you don't have to do anything. (recent enquiry from a hairdressers with 4x 8.5Kw showers on 100amp fuse)
It's interesting to know different takes on filling out certs correctly and if putting the main fuse rating is acceptable I'm all for it as it will speed jobs up.
 
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No blanks in the front of the board? Live accessible parts? I'd think thats amongst one of the worst conditions you could leave a job in. I was also worried that the 9 or 10 errors evident on his test cert showed a certain lack of understanding of technical issues. Would you be happy employing a spark who didn't know the difference between a 60898 and a 60947-3?

Not to mention that if he only tests one circuit whilst changing a 10 way consumer unit he is going to finish the job a couple of hours quicker than someone who does the job properly. Therefore he is quite a lot cheaper than a good sparky and will get more work in the area because of this. So it follows that even more crappy work will be done by him and less work will be done by good electricians. We can't price jobs on a level playing field.
Oh, and it was a council grant job so you and me paid for it out of taxes...

It's never occurred to me to enter 100amps in the max demand box simply because it says 100amp on the fuse carrier because,
It's probably not a 100amp fuse in the carrier in my area and
Thats not the current max demand, thats the theoretical maximum current that could be pulled before the fuse blows. (although in reality it will be higher than the fuse rating)

I had a conversation with my ELECSA inspector about it yesterday and although he didn't condone the x0.4 rule of thumb he did allow that it was impractical to spend hours calculating it accurately.

What do you write when the carrier is unmarked? (mostly all unmarked in my area)
Surely if this was acceptable then they may as well have one combined box for max demand and supply overcurrent protective device?
Anyway, as far as the distributors are concerned, whatever the load, if the fuse hasn't blown the max demand is ok and they/you don't have to do anything. (recent enquiry from a hairdressers with 4x 8.5Kw showers on 100amp fuse)
It's interesting to know different takes on filling out certs correctly and if putting the main fuse rating is acceptable I'm all for it as it will speed jobs up.

Wasn't meaning to have a pop mate. You are dead right, no blanks is shoddy, I missed that bit.
What I was getting at was that I know some very good sparks who do not necessarily fill their test sheets out exactly right every time. Doesn't make em bad sparkies.

In all honesty I tend to turbo fill my own sheets due to the fact I do about 3 EIC a week and its always about quater to five when Im doing them. I've always put whatever is written on the fuse carrier as max demand. There have probably been occasions where I have recorded the main supply OCPD incorrectly put I dont lose any sleep over it.

I also tend to blast through the tick boxes without paying them much attention (on an EIC not an EICR). I dont need a bloody bit of paper to remind me to use cable that has insulation around the core or to not put a 1mm on a 40amp MCB.
 
Yet another spark robbing customers! {filename} | ElectriciansForums.net


No bathroom mate ....they maybe in need of one of these
but if the bottom is cracked/leaking...and there was a joint box hidden inder the floor just where said potty was sat?...hmm.....
 
Wasn't meaning to have a pop mate. You are dead right, no blanks is shoddy, I missed that bit.
What I was getting at was that I know some very good sparks who do not necessarily fill their test sheets out exactly right every time. Doesn't make em bad sparkies.

In all honesty I tend to turbo fill my own sheets due to the fact I do about 3 EIC a week and its always about quater to five when Im doing them. I've always put whatever is written on the fuse carrier as max demand. There have probably been occasions where I have recorded the main supply OCPD incorrectly put I dont lose any sleep over it.

I also tend to blast through the tick boxes without paying them much attention (on an EIC not an EICR). I dont need a bloody bit of paper to remind me to use cable that has insulation around the core or to not put a 1mm on a 40amp MCB.

It was pretty obvious he didn't give a crap, description of work was 'shower'
 
FWIW, i simply do my tests point out deviations, explain in laymans language for the customer what it means, supply a quote, fix it and move on.
I would not dream of spending any braincell activity over another sparkies work or views, lifes too short and i am not perfect either.
Thats after a full day of remedials on an installation a NIC sparkie did. Its par for the course.
 
just be happy you get remedials ..... enjoy spending the money////

i was in wholesalers today and guy asked me was i busy , i said aye steady enough, 2 houses waiting on roofs to go on in his street and other bits and pieces, he goes thats my area how you get that.. i said £6ph for joke he was rippon, wholesaler guys laughing what a numpty humpty.... rip humpty dumty
 

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