O
You're right Murdoch, he is lying.
He can no more control imigration in the EU than he could if we were out.
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Darkwood
How did he convince you?.. From what I saw he spent the majority of the time deflecting questions, avoiding answers and when he finally did answer on how do we control immigration he suggested a flawed system that has been failing for the last several years because it doesn't work - how do you expect to deport anyone if they cannot find a job in 6months when we still have a backlog of criminals in the system, enough to fill a small town that we cannot even deport due to EU hoops and red tape thats needed to just deport 1 person... the other week the EU overuled the UK and let a known rapist back into the UK because they didn't deem his history was cause to return him back to his country so it looks like we cannot even send a rapist home now!
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Octopus
It would be easy to control if we were out. The decisions would be ours to make and take.
Cameron will be history after the 24th June - any credibility he had is evaporating fast now
I'm not a political animal like some. In my opinion I thought he gave some good replies, he was asked a lot of different questions, and I don't know the format of the Q&A, but he gave answers to all questions and seem to have a knowledge of each subject.
Whilst immigration is an emotive subject at the moment, I don't thing ones whole decision should be based just on that. As someone said this week, if we leave, our borders will move from el Calais to Dover.
Another thing concerns me, is the amount of corporate organisations stating they will relocate if we leave. In my opinion, jobs and economics are one of the key concerns over whether to leave or stay.
I'll watch the flip side, tonight I think it is, and see what Grove has to say.
Well the facts do not bear that out Murdoch.
Cameron got in on a promise to get immigration down to the tens of thousands. We have total control over non EU immigration and that is nowhere near that figure. In theory we could stop non EU immigration over night but the reality is different.
Outside the EU will be the same. We will still not be able to control immigration.
However I still think you will get your way. The economy will be so trashed that no one will want to come here and there will be no jobs for them even if they did.
I hope you're right. But not with Johnson or Osborne taking over.
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Darkwood
If will leave our border will remain the same as it is now at dover, our agreement with france to regarding the Calais / Dover arrangment is a deal external to the EU and does not rely on our membership, also it is in both the UK and France's best interest to leave it as it is as this reduces the attraction of using france as a route to Britain, this was the reason it was set up and agreed by both parties... and it worked as it reduced the flow benefiting us both. France has already said there is no intention to change the arrangement if we leave and that was when the IN campaign realised there bluff had been called and stopped saying it (although a few out of touch scaremongerers still say it).
As for the large business throwing scare stories out there about moving or staff reductions... well mostly its just that and the victims if any will be the cheap labour they have access to in the EU, its in all our membership agreements that and exit from the EU will not effect any existing jobs or residences already settled in any country so leaving would not see us sacking and sending back those already employed or resident and vice versa.
As goes for the economical argument, yes there will be job losses as their will be if we remain, everyone seems to forget all those UK citizens that lost their careers and jobs due to EU migration driving down wages replacing our jobs with cheaper labour etc... if we left we already have sealed agreements ready to open worth 10's of billions with the likes of India, Canada etc which at the moment are off the table because the EU has blocked them trading with us due to the likes of other members vetoing the deals like france who say they would loose out if we traded with Canada... so as it goes at the moment a large restriction is been put on out economical growth to protect other members who have a bee in their bonnet and don't like competition. Yes jobs will be lost in the adjustment in the short term but long term we will be free from the stagnated growth of the EU and join the rest of the world and see a healthy growth which means a richer country, higher wages and more jobs.
So far all I have seen is these big corporates who are self interested in our position within the EU make comment and all with regards to their position and ignoring what is best for the country as a whole.
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Octopus
As I stated, the decisions WOULD be ours to take and make.
As for a Cameron replacement - I can see the Conservatives with a "jeremy corbyn" at the wheel.
The UK doesn't have ANY true leaders at the moment - they are pretty much ALL career politicians without back bones.
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Don't know why that block gets some much good press, he's more 'Chipping Norton' than Cameron.
You can tell when he is lying, his lips move.
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Octopus
The thing is Pete, on this VERY subject, we all know he's lying as one of the key aims of the EU is freedom of movement and on this basis the Brussels "mob" will not change this - so such a pledge or promised is an unachievable goal.
For me the entire EU strategy now is is about not allowing the Euro to fail - at ANY cost. This means that until the Germans and French agree to treaty change so that ALL the Euro zone countries have political AND fiscal union the mess will only get worse.
Good shout. To help me making my decision, can you identify me the politician, who's not economical with the truth on this subject?
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Octopus
Good shout. To help me making my decision, can you identify me the politician, who's not economical with the truth on ANY subject?
Corrected that for you!
So I'm stuffed then, can't trust any of them (Leave or Remain). Gonna have to make the decision for myself? Any ideas where I can get some impartial advice? :confused5:
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Octopus
I was in the audience for the the Clegg v Ferage EU debate a couple of years ago. I didn't think they were telling us the truth then and I don't think ANYONE is telling us the truth now.
That said you have to remember that Germany and France will do ANYTHING to protect the Euro - the weaker countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy should have been allowed to leave around 2010 - and if they had the EU would have returned to growth a long time ago.
AND remember ALL new countries HAVE to join the Euro when joining the EU.........
They can't all be lying Murdoch.
Remain says there will be job losses, Brexiters say there will not.
Remain says the economy will suffer, Brexiters say it will not
Remain says there will be an impact on security, Brexiters say there will be no impact
Brexiters say we send £350m a week to the EU, remain say we do not
And on and on.
On most points they are arguing polar opposites.
That's right MW. You have to find out as much as you can yourself and make a judgement on that.
Enjoy.
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Octopus
Interesting point the £350m per week.... you would have thought this would be "easy" to nail down - but neither side have so this is stupid.
What is not in dispute is the fact that we send X - get back Y and there is a massive "contribution" to the fund the net "takers" in the EU
As for the polar opposites - I quite agree - its because neither actually know.
Out of the people I have spoken to they are ALL out except 1 millionaire and 1 civil servant.
Well bl***dy said Murdoch! As I have said before the lot of them are a shower of ---- with a very few exceptions (Margaret Hodge for example). They have all run this country down over decades now. When we do leave I can't wait to see both Cameron and Corbyn resign, and good riddance to the pair of them. On the other topic, how can people say we could not control our own borders?? We are doing it now, non-EU immigration has been reduced massively over the last couple of years, we can't even get curry chef's these days!
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Octopus
Not sure I agree with that.
Immigration from the EU or the rest of the World allows UK plc to "avoid" the costs of training staff..........
I don't agree with it either. I think one big point that is never discussed in all this is the fact that we should NOT be using the resources of ANY other countries to bolster up our country. We should be helping them to better their own countries so they do not want to come in the first place (we do financially anyway). An awful lot of these "refugees" are just young men who have looked on their phones at the UK and thought "right sod this place I want to go and live in the UK its great there". It is morally wrong that we are talking of taking doctors, nurses and so on from other countries, they are needed there to help those countries get better. We should have been training our own people, but as usual successive governments have buggered it up and now we are in a mess. I was just making the point that we CAN control our borders, but only if we are OUT regarding EU immigrants.
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I'm stay in. Though I have positives and negatives ( good eh!!) on both sides of argument.
I think if we we are out , the immigration could be worse. Britain just don't turn boats away from their border. Just now our border is in France, they would gladly send boats our way .
but I know nothing ..:confused5:
I think if we we are out , the immigration could be worse. Britain just don't turn boats away from their border. Just now our border is in France, they would gladly send boats our way .
but I know nothing ..:confused5:
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Darkwood
Nothing wrong with been flumaxed by it all but read my post 488 about the French border deal
You may be right, but history tells us, not to trust the French with their promises does it not?Nothing wrong with been flumaxed by it all but read my post 488 about the French border deal
If getting out is solely on immigration I think we should stay.
Thats my point. The financial and political side is over my , and most others I think , head
Wonderwall strip away all the economic, immigration debate and get down to the crux of the matter, as I have said in another post its basically do you want to live in a democratic society or under a dictatorship, it really is that simple, your choice.
I did mean to include this quote in my last post.
“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Gorbachev.
“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Gorbachev.
If you want to get rid of the Tories, then vote accordingly in 2020 :biggrin5:
Fiscal union only benefits the Germans that is why they are so feared of it failing other countries in the Euro didn't get a choice on the Euro and didn't want it and the exchange price rises it brought at it's introduction. With regard to Euro bailouts it seems to be forgotten that the UK bailed out Ireland when some Euro zone countries were under financial pressure
And replace them with what UKIP, SNP, The Green party or how about The monster raving loony's
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Darkwood
Trust is a different thing but on this occasion lets say they did play silly buggers and we had our checkpoint moved back to Dover then it weakens the border for both sides, the attraction for migrants to come that route returns, the influx and problems that were will be again and its France that get hit the hardest as they still have to get on a train or truck illegally so nothing really changes from what we see now except the numbers trying to come will increase, you think the limited numbers even with their trouble making are bad now then look back to what it used to be before this arrangement was set up. Anyone using the French border deal as a scare story is simply saying that they cannot convince you with any positive reason to remain in the EU so they will try scare you with stories of border changes or Economical breakdown (exactly the same thing said if we didn't join the EU by the same people and PLC's - we kind of dodged a bullet there by staying out of it)...
All Im saying here is if you are undecided then research it yourself as the suveys done by alledged unbiased groups (who receive EU monies) is all biased to favour a remain - the research the LSE for instance isn't untrue but it is selectively picked out to move to a position to favour remain, they get a very healthy and generous input of money from the EU, have frequest guest events of high standind EU politicians and have alot of EU propaganda within their teaching structure and this is the institute that provides the so called data for the remains arguments.... in 2002 the LSE chairman Peter Sutherland produced what is now known as the Sutherland report that urged us to rethink about joining the Euro and put a positive case to do so, had we taken the advice the country would have been hit badly and recovery from the recent crash wouldn't have been as easy, this is one of those rare occasions that I believe Gorden Brown got it right in warning us not to join the Euro and again the economical warning produced by the LSE if we didn't join, never came to fruition and in fact the opposite happened as the pound strengthened and investment increased in the UK.
Thats a new one! Stopping in to reduce immigration????
I do not think that you have to be a financial wizzkid or be as politically astute as DW and others on here, to be able to do the simple maths. This country is paying an outrageous amount of money in, basically to bolster up the economies and infrastructures of most of the rest of Europe. We don't even get much of a say in how we spend the very much smaller refund. Instead of doing this we could be using that money to improve our country. I do not see why we should shell out to help countries like Portugal, for instance, who have basically sat on their a***s for years.
It's not as a daft as you think.
If we had nothing to do with Europe, the officials could easily turn a blind eye to who leaves their borders.
Politicians don't want to admit it, but Britain needs immigrants. We have an ageing and dwindling population and if today's workforce are to get a pension we need young blood that's prepared to have families and work. They are facts, nobody likes to admit them , but it's sadly true.
As usual, politicians will tell us everything but the truth.
Boris wants us to leave, that should surely set alarm bells ringing for everyone.
so, over the last 5 years, 1 million UK jobs have been taken by immigrants who mainly send a fair proportion of their earnings back to their home countries, thus damaging the UK economy.. how many British born are on the dole? what about the other millions of immigrants who have not got work?
I nearly replied along the lines of what country are you living in, but iv'e just noticed. What a load of bl**dy rubbish do you get the daily mail up there??
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