Blanks missing from CU in 2 senarios

[Nigel]

Define danger present.

Where an observation has been given a Classification code C1, the safety of those using the installation is at risk and immediate remedial action is required.

The person responsible for the maintenance of the installation is advised to take action without delay to remedy the observed deficiency in the installation, or to take other appropriate action (such as switching off and isolating the affected part(s) of the installation) to remove the danger.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

At the end of the day a C1 or C2 will fail the report as unsatisfactory. Our judgement on site it to make sure there is nothing that will hurt anyone or cause a fire until the C2s are carried out. I think a blank missing can really fit into either catogory, i explained earlier my reasoning. Its nice to see a decent debate on here.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

At the end of the day a C1 or C2 will fail the report as unsatisfactory. Our judgement on site it to make sure there is nothing that will hurt anyone or cause a fire until the C2s are carried out. I think a blank missing can really fit into either catogory, i explained earlier my reasoning. Its nice to see a decent debate on here.

 

[westward10]

They are at risk from something potentially dangerous.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If I see a sign which says “Danger 415 volts” is it potentially dangerous or immediately dangerous?

 

[Deleted account]

Agree both C1 and C2 are fails, but there is a difference. You cannot re energise a circuit that has a C1. You must isolate or immediately do remedial works to remove the " danger present".
You can re energise a circuit that is a C2.


You will note the correct terminology ( danger present)

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Agree both C1 and C2 are fails, but there is a difference. You cannot re energise a circuit that has a C1. You must isolate or immediately do remedial works to remove the " danger present".
You can re energise a circuit that is a C2.


You will note the correct terminology ( danger present)

Who says you cannot re-energise a circuit with a C1 and who says you can re-energise a circuit with a C2?

 

[Nigel]

If I see a sign which says “Danger 415 volts” is it potentially dangerous or immediately dangerous?

Potentially obvously.

Jesus this is painful.

 

[Nigel]

Who says you cannot re-energise a circuit with a C1 and who says you can re-energise a circuit with a C2?

Anyone with any sense.

 

[Spoon]

Agree both C1 and C2 are fails, but there is a difference. You cannot re energise a circuit that has a C1. You must isolate or immediately do remedial works to remove the " danger present".
You can re energise a circuit that is a C2.

So if a CU has a blank missing and you give it a C1, do you isolate the CU until you fit a blank? What if you haven't any spare or the correct blank for the CU, do you isolate the CU and only energise it when you have fitted the blank? (All friendly questions, as I am curious)
I would be miffed if the CU had to be isolated for a length of time just due to a blank missing. Are all customers that thick that they will stick their finder in somewhere that you have just told them is dangerous?

 

[Deleted account]

Who says you cannot re-energise a circuit with a C1 and who says you can re-energise a circuit with a C2?

Would you energise a circuit you knew to have a danger present?

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

So if a CU has a blank missing and you give it a C1, do you isolate the CU until you fit a blank? What if you haven't any spare or the correct blank for the CU, do you isolate the CU and only energise it when you have fitted the blank? (All friendly questions, as I am curious)
I would be miffed if the CU had to be isolated for a length of time just due to a blank missing. Are all customers that thick that they will stick their finder in somewhere that you have just told them is dangerous?

But is a missing blank a C1 or a C2

 

[Deleted account]

So if a CU has a blank missing and you give it a C1, do you isolate the CU until you fit a blank? What if you haven't any spare or the correct blank for the CU, do you isolate the CU and only energise it when you have fitted the blank? (All friendly questions, as I am curious)
I would be miffed if the CU had to be isolated for a length of time just due to a blank missing. Are all customers that thick that they will stick their finder in somewhere that you have just told them is dangerous?

As I said earlier in this case it's easy. I always carry spare blanks so would fit them there and then so no issue.

If I was on a job and went to the board to isolate I would notice right away that blanks where missing. If I didn't have any on me I would not continue with the job until I rectified this. As I had not started the job I would not have isolated at this stage therefore there would be no onus on me to re energise.

This whole thread is really a bit pointless, but quite interesting, as it's an easy fix. Minimal cost minimal time to sort. No issue.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Would you energise a circuit you knew to have a danger present?

Strangely enough, I did just that a few times yesterday evening.

 

[westward10]

But is a missing blank a C1 or a C2

Don't matter they mean the same thing.

 

[westward10]

I re-energise all the time never a worry.

 

[Nigel]

This thread is just a troll fest now.

 

[Des 56]

Given its been stated a few times
Since when has an electrician had the authority to make a decision to isolate anything

 

[Spoon]

This thread is just a troll fest now.

Mine was in no way meant as a troll and I got a decent answer so I'm happy.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As we all know the first thing to do when conducting a periodic inspection, is to inspect.
So finding a missing blank or a damaged socket should not involve de-energising any circuits.
So the question is, are you going to de-energise the affected circuit knowing full well that you will not re-energise the circuit before the C1 condition is rectified?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

This thread is just a troll fest now.

Not a Troll fest, just some members showing how ludicrous the practice of coding faults really is.

 

[westward10]

Code 1 and 2 should have a more defined separation of meaning.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

To my mind a code C1 is where there is a danger of injury to persons or livestock or of a fire without there needing to be another fault.
A code C2 is as above, but where it would require another fault before injury or a fire could occur.
An exposed live conductor or conductive part would be a code C1.
A broken CPC or lack of earthing, would be a code C2.

 

[westward10]

It is the definitions which fail to keep them apart.

 

[Spoon]

So the question is, are you going to de-energise the affected circuit knowing full well that you will not re-energise the circuit before the C1 condition is rectified?

The problem I see is that unscrupulous electricians could use this to code C1 for things that are not actually C1, thinking they will get extra money to rectify said fault.

 

[Des 56]

Given its been stated a few times
Since when has an electrician had the authority to make a decision to isolate anything

Anyone got the date yet,perhaps which edition would do

 

[Nigel]

Given its been stated a few times
Since when has an electrician had the authority to make a decision to isolate anything

I think there is a difference between isolating and not re-energising.

 

[Nigel]

Not a Troll fest, just some members showing how ludicrous the practice of coding faults really is.

I agree. Especially those that would not C1 a live part readily accessible.

 

[Nigel]

Code 1 and 2 should have a more defined separation of meaning.

They do. One is present one is potential.

 

[Nigel]

The problem I see is that unscrupulous electricians could use this to code C1 for things that are not actually C1, thinking they will get extra money to rectify said fault.

Would you re-energise a circuit that has a fault in which all conductive parts on that corcuit are live?

 

[westward10]

Immediate means now, immediately etc... How long do you think you would stand by a dist board with said missing blanks and the present danger in situ before this present danger killed someone. An hour, week, year or never because it is only potentially dangerous. Being locked in a room with no oxygen is present danger.

 

[Nigel]

Immediate means now, immediately etc... How long do you think you would stand by a dist board with said missing blanks and the present danger in situ before this present danger killed someone. An hour, week, year or never because it is only potentially dangerous. Being locked in a room with no oxygen is present danger.

You are the one saying it is potentially dangerous. I would say it that danger is present.

 

[westward10]

Delete.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Would you re-energise a circuit that has a fault in which all conductive parts on that corcuit are live?

You do it all the time.
Yes, I would re-energise a lighting circuit that has no CPC, as long as all the switches and fittings were plastic.

 

[Nigel]

You do it all the time.
Yes, I would re-energise a lighting circuit that has no CPC, as long as all the switches and fittings were plastic.

To be fair that is not the question that I asked.

 

[Spoon]

The problem I see is that unscrupulous electricians could use this to code C1 for things that are not actually C1, thinking they will get extra money to rectify said fault.

Would you re-energise a circuit that has a fault in which all conductive parts on that corcuit are live?

Not sure what this has to do with unscrupulous electricians but it depends on the fault, the circuit and where the installation is I suppose.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Yesterday I went so see a friend to look at the mess she’d made of a couple of light switches.
Bottom of the stairs was a metal 2 gang switch, upstairs near the front bedroom was another metal 2 gang switch.
The two switches were supposed to control a couple of wall lights on the stairs and the landing light.
Originally there had been a single gang 2 way switch up stairs.

First problem is the switch for the lights on the stairs has been fed from the 32A breaker for the upstairs power.
Don’t know why the feed wasn’t taken from a 6A light circuit?
Second problem was that the metal face plate for the the upstairs switch was live.
Third problem is that there is no CPC on the light circuit.

At the time of my visit my friend was helping someone do the plumbing in a bedroom which is being converted to a bath/shower room and her partner was cooking dinner on an electric cooker, fortunately the kitchen extension is fed from a separate CU.
Unfortunately I only had my volt stick (which I have left round there) and some hand tools with me.

Codes?

 

[westward10]

Depends what she was cooking.

 

[Nigel]

Yesterday I went so see a friend to look at the mess she’d made of a couple of light switches.
Bottom of the stairs was a metal 2 gang switch, upstairs near the front bedroom was another metal 2 gang switch.
The two switches were supposed to control a couple of wall lights on the stairs and the landing light.
Originally there had been a single gang 2 way switch up stairs.

First problem is the switch for the lights on the stairs has been fed from the 32A breaker for the upstairs power.
Don’t know why the feed wasn’t taken from a 6A light circuit?
Second problem was that the metal face plate for the the upstairs switch was live.
Third problem is that there is no CPC on the light circuit.

At the time of my visit my friend was helping someone do the plumbing in a bedroom which is being converted to a bath/shower room and her partner was cooking dinner on an electric cooker, fortunately the kitchen extension is fed from a separate CU.
Unfortunately I only had my volt stick (which I have left round there) and some hand tools with me.

Codes?

1 - C2
2 - C1
3 - C3 if all plastic, C2 if any metal.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Depends what she was cooking.

Some kind of rice dish with lumps of chicken.