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I love this!
I need a sensor that works the opposite to normal ones...
so, design the circuit, assess the load etc...
Is there a dusk to dawn sensor that switches "off" instead of "on"?
Yes...it has a relay...NC type...

I haven't seen a photoelectric sensor available in this country with a NC relay.

Now, look at the load...
Beauty! I just need the normal sensor, then add the relay that can cope with the load...

I've considered this method and thinking about it more, my concern regardless of which way its done, I don't think its good practice to rely on having to energize a relay to shut off a machine. Loss of power or a fault to the relay whether integrated in the sensor or as a separate item would mean the switch closes and the machine could energize.
 
I'm not prepared to do anything that is going to be a safety concern. But I don't want to walk away without considering all options. Just because it seems out of the ordinary doesn't mean we can't exercise our imagination and try to find a simple solution that works safely. I posted this inquiry because I found it an interesting question put to me by the customer.
I certainly didn't want reply's that are judgmental and make me feel like I'm committing some sort of crime. I've been in this trade for 30 years and worked on a vast variety of electrical systems.
 
Intoelectrics: I certainly didn't want reply's that are judgmental and make me feel like I'm committing some sort of crime.

It was not my intention to upset you but if I have then I am sorry. I was trying to be helpful and suggested an alternative solution. Of course none of us has a monopoly on good solutions.

PS: For my solution the line feed for the stop/start/latch/overload/coil/pressure sensor circuitry of the DOL starter is provided through the NO contacts of the impulse timer. Then at the beginning of the day to start the compressor there are two button pushes required - first the impulse relay and then the start button. All buttons etcetera on the DOL starter then function as required.
 
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Intoelectrics: I certainly didn't want reply's that are judgmental and make me feel like I'm committing some sort of crime.

It was not my intention to upset you but if I have then I am sorry. I was trying to be helpful and suggested an alternative solution. Of course none of us has a monopoly on good solutions.

PS: For my solution the line feed for the stop/start/latch/overload/coil/pressure sensor circuitry of the DOL starter is provided through the NO contacts of the impulse timer. Then at the beginning of the day to start the compressor there are two button pushes required - first the impulse relay and then the start button. All buttons etcetera on the DOL starter then function as required.
Thanks, yes your solution looks like a good option and one i will definitely consider.

You didn't upset me, no particular one person did.

I just woke up a bit tetchy this morning, so I apologise if my post seemed a bit sensitive.
I see so many times on this forum people post questions and then get beat up as though they are committing a crime when they are just simply missing/misunderstanding a point. I initially asked the question because I found it an interesting exercise. I didn't post it because I want to be judged on my knowledge and abilities.

When I first started out my mentor was building a control panel and I just stood there in awe at how he new from the top of his head how to wire it all in, I asked and he said to me "just think of everything as a switch, its either on or off" his approach was to keep things as simple as possible. This has stood me in stead for 30 years and the same approach I use with my apprentices.

I like to tackle complicated problems by finding simple solutions, where possible. Sometimes there aren't any but I enjoy the challenge of it.
 
@Intoelectrics
If my reply has come across somewhat 'judgemental' etc then this was not the intent, the forum is normally based around the BS7671 but where we have members including myself that are experienced in other areas where separate and/or additional regulations exist then we have to make sure that members are aware of the implications of undertaking such work as it may not only effect the work one undertakes but also the insurance they carry.
I do not always post in the manner that I did here as it is a case by case call, in this case it was simply the nature of the question.
This is in no way a judgement against you or your competence, it may be the case this is just a little out of your usual request and you're used to working on other machinery so just asking for available options out there, all I was ensuring was that before advice is offered that you are aware that this is a sector of the industry that is heavily regulated, has additional insurance requirements and requires additional paperwork as there is nothing in your profile to suggest you do this kind of work.
I did say that if you were on ball with all I said then no issue but just have to make sure if you appreciate that sometimes we need to make sure.
The actual job sounds a simply alteration but one needs to ensure that implicating this small alteration is done in accordance to the relevant regulations and in this case I would suggest the BS60204-1 would cover this although I cannot comment as I am waiting for the new 2018 edition to land on my doorstep as it only came out about a month ago but I am aware there are a lot of additional regulations and changes to existing so as it stands I could only advise under the 2006 edition + A1 (2009).

PS just seen your last post #24... Yes we do get people getting beat up over a simple request and we do try to curb it where possible but sometimes we need to establish the OP's position before advise is handed out to ensure we are not giving out unsafe advise, this field of electrical work just like fire detection system design and install is one such area we need to make sure we are happy the OP is aware of what they are taking on... I have seen this first hand when people don't realise there insurance simply doesn't allow them to undertake this work regardless of their competence to do so as it is moving away from standard insurance that your average sparks would have, my insurance is probably 4X that of your average cover because I work on machinery and 3ph systems.
 
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@darkwood
Thanks for your reply I appreciate your points and concerns.
Yes I have the extra insurance cover and work in-accordance with the regulations for this industry. I now work in the industrial sector mainly and have extensive experience and knowledge on 3ph systems and machinery.
Thanks again for your advice!
 
On that note then how about a solar tracking timer, no need to run external wiring and can be easily set for holidays, days off etc although they can be a pain to program up if your not used to a certain brand.
 
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On that note then how about a solar tracking timer, no need to run external wiring and can be easily set for holidays, days off etc although they can be a pain to program up if your not used to a certain brand.
Now that's a good idea! Is there a brand you would recommend that is simple enough to program? Any info on these would be very useful to me.

Thanks
 
Been a long time since I used them and they all can be tricky to program as is anything when you first use it, I would also consider when upgrading to consider installing indication and control options to allow the timer to be isolated and normal control operation. Personally I would be adding a PLC as a small unit would be similar cost but give the benefit of other optional inputs and outputs but you also need to decide exactly how this timer works with existing system, that's where the BS60204-1 will come into play as there are several ways to incorporate it but not all will be compliant and/or considered safe unless other measures are added or considered.
If the user were to say finish early and hit the stop option then you have to consider what that means to the timer, if it is a twist stop you don't want the timer pulling the motor straight back on when you release it or the timer doing the same when you let your finger off the stop button, a simple enough issue to get around but you end up adding more and more control gear just to allow a compliant system is what I am getting at here as you not only have a manual on option but a automated on control.
 
Been a long time since I used them and they all can be tricky to program as is anything when you first use it, I would also consider when upgrading to consider installing indication and control options to allow the timer to be isolated and normal control operation. Personally I would be adding a PLC as a small unit would be similar cost but give the benefit of other optional inputs and outputs but you also need to decide exactly how this timer works with existing system, that's where the BS60204-1 will come into play as there are several ways to incorporate it but not all will be compliant and/or considered safe unless other measures are added or considered.
If the user were to say finish early and hit the stop option then you have to consider what that means to the timer, if it is a twist stop you don't want the timer pulling the motor straight back on when you release it or the timer doing the same when you let your finger off the stop button, a simple enough issue to get around but you end up adding more and more control gear just to allow a compliant system is what I am getting at here as you not only have a manual on option but a automated on control.
Yes all this is exactly what I have been mulling over. I've been trying to think of a way to make it compliant and safe without over complicating things.
Thanks, I appreciate your time and advice.
 
1 would cover this although I cannot comment as I am waiting for the new 2018 edition to land on my doorstep as it only came out about a month ago but I am aware there are a lot of additional regulations and changes to existing so as it stands I could only advise under the 2006 edition + A1 (2009).

Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't know there was an updated version out.
Where did you get yours from?
 
Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't know there was an updated version out.
Where did you get yours from?

I only found out myself when getting my fire regs updated as the BS5839-1 was updated last year, I am a BSI member which if your a small business is about £200 a yr but allows you to buy the standards at up to a 50% reduction which if you are getting more then a couple is cost effective.
The BS60204-1 is £306 but for members it is £153, I just got the BS5839-1, BS5839-6 and the BS5266-1 so adding them all up I saved about £500 at the expense of £200 membership for a year so I will also add to that collection before my subscription expires.

The BS7671 wasn't much of a bargain tbh though at £85 (£10 off), I got that deal in my wholesalers before joining BSI.
 
I only found out myself when getting my fire regs updated as the BS5839-1 was updated last year, I am a BSI member which if your a small business is about £200 a yr but allows you to buy the standards at up to a 50% reduction which if you are getting more then a couple is cost effective.
The BS60204-1 is £306 but for members it is £153, I just got the BS5839-1, BS5839-6 and the BS5266-1 so adding them all up I saved about £500 at the expense of £200 membership for a year so I will also add to that collection before my subscription expires.

The BS7671 wasn't much of a bargain tbh though at £85 (£10 off), I got that deal in my wholesalers before joining BSI.

Thanks.
Found 2 sites.

BS EN 60204-1:2018 Safety of machinery. Electrical equipment of machines. General requirements - 9780580737466 - https://www.wiringregulations.net/british-standards/bs-en-60204/bs-en-60204-12018-9780580737466.aspx = £290.70

BS IEC 60204-1:2018 Safety of machinery - Electrical equipment of machines - Part 1: General requirements - https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail?pid=000000000030238348 = £306.00
 

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