UK DIYer Newbie - adding additional sockets

[ipf]

I know, but saying the cable will be overloaded is incorrect, unless he’s plugging in something that’s not designed for a 13A plug top.

What if there's a circuit fault.......many a burnt up cable as a result. It's probably OK but who knows?

 

[westward10]

You’ve looked at the right hand fuse. That is usually a 45A fuse, so ignore the above.
show us a photo of under the left hand fuse cover. It will be one of these that controls the garage circuit. Tell us which of the fuses it is.
[automerge]1598288374[/automerge]


agreed on the RCD, but he’s not told us about the correct fuse. !

I did say assuming correct fuse and now it seems it is the 45A.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

What if there's a circuit fault.......many a burnt up cable as a result. It's probably OK but who knows?

I’m not saying it’s right, I’m only questioning him saying it needs removing immediately which I disagree with.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Try reading #5, maybe?

Oh stupid me
[automerge]1598293185[/automerge]
@alljohn just a thought

when you remove the 45A fuse, is the garage the only thing that turns off?
What happens to the cooker?

When the cable comes in to the garage, does it go straight to the socket, or us there anything else connected before the socket?

 

[alljohn]

Oh stupid me
[automerge]1598293185[/automerge]
@alljohn just a thought

when you remove the 45A fuse, is the garage the only thing that turns off?
What happens to the cooker?

When the cable comes in to the garage, does it go straight to the socket, or us there anything else connected before the socket?

There is nothing between where the cable becomes visible (from behind the fuse box) and the socket. We have a gas cooker so I can't say but nothing in the house nor the garage lights are affected only the double socket.
Thanks

 

[Taylortwocities]

Ok. Your basic problem is that sockets, particularly additional sockets must be RCD protected. Your elderly fuse board has no RCD protection.
There is a way to do this, but you need a competent electrician to do this.

Your secondary problem is the fuse size. It’s too big for that single smallish cable. It’s tolerable because you only have a double socket on the end. Add more sockets and tthe cable could exceed its maximum current ceiling. The cable might overheat, and you don’t want that to happen. The circuit needs sorting out and the correct fuse used according to your expected load and the size of the cable. Again, this is a job for
a competent electrician.

 

[alljohn]

Sorry to labour the point but using a 13 Amp 2 Gang Double RCD Switched Socket such as:

13 Amp 2 Gang Double RCD Switched Socket (Active) - White | Timeguard (RCD05WAVN)

www.tlc-direct.co.uk

be acceptable? Also what ampage should the replacement fuse be 20 or 30 or ?
Many thanks for your help.

 

[pc1966]

Is that fuse just for your sockets, or is it somehow feeding other stuff?

Looking at it from the outside, the new socket project has the look of a slow car-crash and really needs someone competent to take a closer look and check that the various fundamental safety aspects are really being met.

 

[alljohn]

Is that fuse just for your sockets, or is it somehow feeding other stuff?

Looking at it from the outside, the new socket project has the look of a slow car-crash and really needs someone competent to take a closer look and check that the various fundamental safety aspects are really being met.

It would be for the existing double socket (i.e. no additional sockets).

 

[Taylortwocities]

What’s happened to your original requirement?

I'm wanting to add extra sockets

 

[pc1966]

It would be for the existing double socket (i.e. no additional sockets).

Changing from a normal socket to an RCD one here is a definite improvement in safety, but if it has a 45A fuse feeding it on 2.5mm T&E then it is a serious fire risk. Yes, the sockets are limited by 2*13A fuses, but in the event of a cable fault that fuse is unlikely to be acceptable.

If that is the case, whoever installed it in the first place has made a major and pretty fundamental mistake, and that in turn calls in to question other aspects of the installation.

 

[alljohn]

Changing from a normal socket to an RCD one here is a definite improvement in safety, but if it has a 45A fuse feeding it on 2.5mm T&E then it is a serious fire risk. Yes, the sockets are limited by 2*13A fuses, but in the event of a cable fault that fuse is unlikely to be acceptable.

If that is the case, whoever installed it in the first place has made a major and pretty fundamental mistake, and that in turn calls in to question other aspects of the installation.

I've decided to shelve the additional sockets idea until I can get this problem sorted out - I understand that the 45A fuse is not acceptable and will replace it so could you advise what size fuse I should have in there.
Many thanks

 

[Dartlec]

I've decided to shelve the additional sockets idea until I can get this problem sorted out - I understand that the 45A fuse is not acceptable and will replace it so could you advise what size fuse I should have in there.
Many thanks

It looks like someone in the past may have used the circuit designed for a cooker to run the 2.5mm to your garage socket.

The right hand fuse looks like it might be a cartridge type, rather than fuse wire (I'm not sure they made 45A fuse wire). It's possible that a different fuse was been put in. (a 15A or 20A would likely have been appropriate depending on circumstances) - Is the 45A you are quoting from the fuse itself, or the cover? I can't make out on the photo....

The issue is that the carriers are not widely available new now, and second hand replacements from ebay are not a good solution in all but the most extreme cases. Because you would now be modifying the board and circuit (even if for the better), technically it might become a notifiable job under Part P

This is the sort of job that it really is worth trying to find a local electrician, who can have a proper look at to identify the best solution forward. If you can find a small company or a one man band, an hours worth of labour would be well worth it - or some might even offer a free quote for the work.

A good electrician won't immediately just say you need a board change (although that board is now very old and if you are planning more work it may well be a good idea for many reasons), but will be able to consider the many factors involved in judging what an safe and compliant installation would be.

To your original question, had everything been in order, then a fused spur (or possibly RCD fused spur) to replace the existing socket would have allowed you to add several sockets safely.

I'm guessing there has never been an EICR (Periodic Inspection) on this property so you have no certificates to refer to?

 

[alljohn]

It looks like someone in the past may have used the circuit designed for a cooker to run the 2.5mm to your garage socket.

The right hand fuse looks like it might be a cartridge type, rather than fuse wire (I'm not sure they made 45A fuse wire). It's possible that a different fuse was been put in. (a 15A or 20A would likely have been appropriate depending on circumstances) - Is the 45A you are quoting from the fuse itself, or the cover? I can't make out on the photo....

The issue is that the carriers are not widely available new now, and second hand replacements from ebay are not a good solution in all but the most extreme cases. Because you would now be modifying the board and circuit (even if for the better), technically it might become a notifiable job under Part P

This is the sort of job that it really is worth trying to find a local electrician, who can have a proper look at to identify the best solution forward. If you can find a small company or a one man band, an hours worth of labour would be well worth it - or some might even offer a free quote for the work.

A good electrician won't immediately just say you need a board change (although that board is now very old and if you are planning more work it may well be a good idea for many reasons), but will be able to consider the many factors involved in judging what an safe and compliant installation would be.

To your original question, had everything been in order, then a fused spur (or possibly RCD fused spur) to replace the existing socket would have allowed you to add several sockets safely.

I'm guessing there has never been an EICR (Periodic Inspection) on this property so you have no certificates to refer to?

It is a cartridge with 45A on the sealed case so no access to the fuse wire to change it. I'll get a local electrician to look at it but in the meantime would it be better to change it to a 20A fuse either cartridge or carrier with the correct fuse wire? You're right in assuming there isn't an EICR certificate to look at.

 

[Dartlec]

It is a cartridge with 45A on the sealed case so no access to the fuse wire to change it. I'll get a local electrician to look at it but in the meantime would it be better to change it to a 20A fuse either cartridge or carrier with the correct fuse wire? You're right in assuming there isn't an EICR certificate to look at.

If all that is connected to it is currently the one double socket, and you don't plug in any large loads (say over 3kW or 13A) then it is probably not an immediate danger (it has likely been like this for some time?).

It's probably better to leave the possibilities to an electrician who can inspect personally to decide on the options. Changing it to a 20A may well be possible and would obviously be better than what is there, but if the cable runs through insulation or is not actually 2.5mm for example, then it may not.

It's also possible that the cable has been damaged by overheating if something has previously been run from it while it was fused incorrectly.

Testing that is something that can only be done by the correct tester, and I'd certainly be doing that before adding anything to the other end of it.

Changing it to a 20A fuse carrier usually involves changing the plastic shield behind as well (They are keyed so the correct colour fits with the correct fuse carrier and fuse), which can expose live parts directly and therefore is definitely not recommended to anyone without the relevant competance.

 

[alljohn]

If all that is connected to it is currently the one double socket, and you don't plug in any large loads (say over 3kW or 13A) then it is probably not an immediate danger (it has likely been like this for some time?).

It's probably better to leave the possibilities to an electrician who can inspect personally to decide on the options. Changing it to a 20A may well be possible and would obviously be better than what is there, but if the cable runs through insulation or is not actually 2.5mm for example, then it may not.

It's also possible that the cable has been damaged by overheating if something has previously been run from it while it was fused incorrectly.

Testing that is something that can only be done by the correct tester, and I'd certainly be doing that before adding anything to the other end of it.

Changing it to a 20A fuse carrier usually involves changing the plastic shield behind as well (They are keyed so the correct colour fits with the correct fuse carrier and fuse), which can expose live parts directly and therefore is definitely not recommended to anyone without the relevant competance.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[westward10]

To reduce the fuse size you need to buy a complete new carrier as a smaller BS1361, 20A fuse will not fit a 45A carrier.

 

[alljohn]

The only 20A fuse carriers I can find are on ebay (please let me know if you know where I can get a new one from). Would I be able to use something like:

Wylex Plug in Breaker B Type 20A Yellow | Toolstation

Converts Wylex standard rewireable fuse holders or cartridge fuse holders to MCBs. Includes breaker and colour coded contact shield base.

www.toolstation.com

In either case would it fit straight into the 45A socket?
Thanks

 

[pc1966]

You won't get a new one for that board, they stopped making that sort decades ago.

What you have found will fit the rewirable fuses in that board, and as such is a useful improvement (safer to reset without skill, no risk of wrong fuse fire size being used, etc).

But that dangerous use of the 45A fuse for that circuit is not going to be an easy fix.

Best solution would be a new board with full RCD protection (e.g. all-RCBO, given the small number of circuits), which is definitely outside of DIY scope.

 

[alljohn]

You won't get a new one for that board, they stopped making that sort decades ago.

What you have found will fit the rewirable fuses in that board, and as such is a useful improvement (safer to reset without skill, no risk of wrong fuse fire size being used, etc).

But that dangerous use of the 45A fuse for that circuit is not going to be an easy fix.

Best solution would be a new board with full RCD protection (e.g. all-RCBO, given the small number of circuits), which is definitely outside of DIY scope.

Would there be any benefit in putting a fused connector unit before the socket? if so, what size should the fuse be?
Thanks