Emergency Lighting Solution

[scania164]

I'm looking to setup a lighting DB in the following way.

I want to have two switch controlled contacters controlling 13 MCB fed lighting circuits each.
I also want an emergency test contactor to be incorporated into the board.
This will control the feed to all the circuits.

I'm sure I remember previously wiring a DB that had two terminals per MCB, one for the switch wire and one for the emergency feed to the lights.
Like each MCB was feeding onto two busbars.
It was a good few years ago so my memory's a bit hazy.

I've tried googling but I'm having trouble sourcing such a solution.

I'd like to hear of people's experience of similar setups and perhaps someone could point me in the right direction to source one.

-Cheers...

 

[accordfire]

Not sure why you'd need a separate output for emergency lighting, as the principle is to operate in the absence of a local mains supply.

As for testing, the simple solution would be to put a test key switch on the control side of the contactor, thus isolating the feed to the contactor, and simulating failure of the supply.

Lighting itself is then simply wired in parallel with existing lighting on the circuit.

Perhaps a better understanding of what it is you're trying to achieve would help....

 

[scania164]

Not sure why you'd need a separate output for emergency lighting, as the principle is to operate in the absence of a local mains supply.

As for testing, the simple solution would be to put a test key switch on the control side of the contactor, thus isolating the feed to the contactor, and simulating failure of the supply.

Lighting itself is then simply wired in parallel with existing lighting on the circuit.

Perhaps a better understanding of what it is you're trying to achieve would help....

Thanks for replying Bill.

The problem with putting the key switch on the control side of the contactor would be that you'd turn off all the lights when you switched it, instead of just killing the emergency feed.

As for why I'd need a seperarte output for the emergency lighting well, otherwise the emergency feed to the lights would be lost everytime you turned the contactor off, seeing as how the contactor controls the feed to the MCBs supplying the lighting circuits.

The system I vaguely remember seemed like an elegant solution.

 

[Sintra]

The way I would do it is as follows.

Feed from MCB to supply side of a N/O contactor linked to supply side of a N/C contactor.

From load side of N/O contactor to your normal lighting.

From load side of N/C contactor to perm live of emergency fittings.

Control N/O contactor by standard switch and control N/C contactor by a key switch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[johnboy6083]

this is a problem that me and a mate were discussing the other day. If you kill the feed to everything via a keyswitch, then you are able to see exactly what would happen in the event of power faliure, and are able to easily spiot dim lamps ect. If you only kill the emergency feed, then any lights that are not Em will remain on. this is ok for ensuring that the em lights are working, but you will find it difficult to spot dim lamps, and to identify how well they are doing their job, ie guiding you out of the building in event of power failure!

 

[scania164]

The way I would do it is as follows.

Feed from MCB to supply side of a N/O contactor linked to supply side of a N/C contactor.

From load side of N/O contactor to your normal lighting.

From load side of N/C contactor to perm live of emergency fittings.

Control N/O contactor by standard switch and control N/C contactor by a key switch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry sinatra, I'm a little confused.
The contactor would be be supplying 13 lighting circuits from 13 MCBs.
If I did it your way wouldn't I have to use 13 MCBs for the switched supplies then additional MCBs for the emergency supplies.
I.e. I couldn't use the switched feed and the emergency feed couldn't be taken from the same MCB?

this is a problem that me and a mate were discussing the other day. If you kill the feed to everything via a keyswitch, then you are able to see exactly what would happen in the event of power faliure, and are able to easily spiot dim lamps ect. If you only kill the emergency feed, then any lights that are not Em will remain on. this is ok for ensuring that the em lights are working, but you will find it difficult to spot dim lamps, and to identify how well they are doing their job, ie guiding you out of the building in event of power failure!

If you have a problem seeing the lights why not just turn off the key switch and the regular light switch?
There are a lot of applications where it's not feasible to turn off all the lights when doing an EM test.

 

[accordfire]

Thanks for replying Bill.

The problem with putting the key switch on the control side of the contactor would be that you'd turn off all the lights when you switched it, instead of just killing the emergency feed.

As for why I'd need a seperarte output for the emergency lighting well, otherwise the emergency feed to the lights would be lost everytime you turned the contactor off, seeing as how the contactor controls the feed to the MCBs supplying the lighting circuits.

The system I vaguely remember seemed like an elegant solution.

Ah. I see - testing purposes without killing the primary lighting? Do I have that right?

As for the emergency lighting - am I gathering correctly that it is presently wired separately to the primary lighting all the way back to the CU?

 

[Sintra]

Sorry sinatra, I'm a little confused.
The contactor would be be supplying 13 lighting circuits from 13 MCBs.
If I did it your way wouldn't I have to use 13 MCBs for the switched supplies then additional MCBs for the emergency supplies.
I.e. I couldn't use the switched feed and the emergency feed couldn't be taken from the same MCB?


No the way I am suggesting is that only 1 MCB be used per circuit by linking at the supply side of the contactor.

1 cable from each MCB to supply side of normal lighting contractors looped across to supply side of emergency lighting contractors.

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[scania164]

@Bill
Yes, the lighting shouldn't be turned off when testing the emergencies.
There is no present wiring, it's a new build I'm trying to design.

The method of testing the emergencies really isn't an issue.
It's more the way to feed the emergency and switched circuits.
Sinra's method would be totally impractical for this scenario.
I want to control multiple MCBs from the one contactor.
I could just use a normal board and then use separate MCBs for the emergency supplies but I'd rather do it the way I've described in my original post.
The way I remember that board was that there was a row of double DIN rail connectors.
Each one had two terminals, one on top and one on the bottom.
One for the EM feed and one for the switched feed.
Contacters controlled the feed to these.

I wish I could remember it more clearly.

 

[accordfire]

@Bill
Yes, the lighting shouldn't be turned off when testing the emergencies.
There is no present wiring, it's a new build I'm trying to design.

The method of testing the emergencies really isn't an issue.
It's more the way to feed the emergency and switched circuits.
Sinra's method would be totally impractical for this scenario.
I want to control multiple MCBs from the one contactor.
I could just use a normal board and then use separate MCBs for the emergency supplies but I'd rather do it the way I've described in my original post.
The way I remember that board was that there was a row of double DIN rail connectors.
Each one had two terminals, one on top and one on the bottom.
One for the EM feed and one for the switched feed.
Contacters controlled the feed to these.

I wish I could remember it more clearly.

Well, fundamentally, you need a switched feed to your primary lighting, and a permanent feed to the emergency lighting.

I'm having a bit of a hard time figuring out the "vision" of what it is you're trying to do.

I can understand well enough that you'd need a contactor if you want to switch 13 circuits of lighting via one switch.

What I'm struggling with more is where those circuits are in terms of are they all one area, or 13 different areas - i.e. effectively 13 different local feeds to 13 floors, for example.

That has a bearing on how you control and supply your emergency lighting, if it is to be installed to BS5266.

I'd also be curious as to why the emergency lighting would need a contactor, if all 13 circuits are in the same area - at an approx 40mA on charge, you can theoretically put a hundred fittings on one 6A MCB and still have room - 6A/40mA - 150.

It seems from your initial post you actually have 26 lighting circuits to control - is this right?

Assuming you've got 26 different feeds to control for both primary and emergency lighting, then I guess you're looking for a way to control 26 ways of emergency lighting independently of 26 ways of primary lighting, yes?

By that I mean - if one MCB fails, the corresponding emergency lighting is activated (or the corresponding emerg lighting circuit activates at any rate).

 

[scania164]

I'm having a bit of a hard time figuring out the "vision" of what it is you're trying to do.

I can understand well enough that you'd need a contactor if you want to switch 13 circuits of lighting via one switch.

The circuits contain regular lighting as well as emergency.
If the feed is controlled by the contactor where does the permanent supply come from without using additional MCBs?

 

[accordfire]

The circuits contain regular lighting as well as emergency.
If the feed is controlled by the contactor where does the permanent supply come from without using additional MCBs?

K - I think I'm missing something in this.

Taking it from the beginning, one step at a time so my poor little Monday Thrashed brainette can cope.....

You have 26 circuits of lighting, containing both primary and emergency lighting?

In "normal" situations, the primary lighting would be controlled by a plate switch in the local area, and the emergency lighting permanently fed.

If I understand it though, you want to control ALL primary lighting from one switch via a contactor?

And you want functionality to test emergency lighting on each circuit from a single point?

Is that about right?

 

[Jas0n7]

come out of your fuseboard with a brown into an empty slot in the contactor, the SAME terminal in the contactor loop off to ANOTHER contactor. so so far we have 1 feed looping to TWO different contactors. Now, contactor one is switched from a key sw and contactor two is switched from a light switch. copy paste all 13 times. you kill the key sw only the em feed up to the EM terminals dies as the LOOP from the MCB to the Second contactor is still live so the lights will all work.

Thanks Jason.

p.s how do i get my members arms thing

 

[scania164]

Hi Bill-

All the circuits are supplying the one, very large room.
I could just feed the emergencies separately and let them come on in the event of a loss of power to the entire board but I'd prefer not to do it that way.

About 6 of the circuits contain normal lighting as well as emergency.
I want these circuits to get their emergency and switched supplies from the same MCBs.
As the switched supply will be going through a contactor that's why I'm looking for a setup as described above.
If I can't find such a solution I'll just supply the emergency and switched supplies from differenet MCBS, probably a 10 and a 6.

 

[scania164]

come out of your fuseboard with a brown into an empty slot in the contactor, the SAME terminal in the contactor loop off to ANOTHER contactor. so so far we have 1 feed looping to TWO different contactors. Now, contactor one is switched from a key sw and contactor two is switched from a light switch. copy paste all 13 times. you kill the key sw only the em feed up to the EM terminals dies as the LOOP from the MCB to the Second contactor is still live so the lights will all work.

Thanks Jason.

p.s how do i get my members arms thing

Sorry Jason, I think I'm misunderstanding you.
Would your system not involved using 26 contactors?
I.e. two contactors per MCB with the MCBs supplying the contactors instead of the other way around.
If I can't find the solution that I want I'll use something similar to this with the first contactor supplying 13 MCBs for the switched side of things and the other contactor supplying 6 MCBs for the emergency feeds.

K - I think I'm missing something in this.

Taking it from the beginning, one step at a time so my poor little Monday Thrashed brainette can cope.....

You have 26 circuits of lighting, containing both primary and emergency lighting?

In "normal" situations, the primary lighting would be controlled by a plate switch in the local area, and the emergency lighting permanently fed.

If I understand it though, you want to control ALL primary lighting from one switch via a contactor?

And you want functionality to test emergency lighting on each circuit from a single point?

Is that about right?

Heh-heh, my brain is starting to struggle now too.
I want two contactors controlling 13 circuits each.
Yes, I want to be able to test all the emergency lighting from one point.
The emergency testing side of it isn't that big a deal, I'm open to doing it in various different ways. The crux of it is that I'd like the switched and emergency feeds to come from the same MCB while controlling the switch feed through a contactor.