DT1991
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When put into maths it requires a stupid low Ra value which cannot in reality be sustained.Why not the supplementary earth rod path?
That's my understanding?
When put into maths it requires a stupid low Ra value which cannot in reality be sustained.Why not the supplementary earth rod path?
When put into maths it requires a stupid low Ra value which cannot in reality be sustained.
That's my understanding?
Yes we did some calcs at college when we did the course. It was nigh on impossible. I think 3 earth rods 1 meter apart 2.4 meters deep might do it. Depending on resistivity of the earth.When put into maths it requires a stupid low Ra value which cannot in reality be sustained.
That's my understanding?
[/QUOTE]I dont think the maths is the same.
When PME and using a supplementary earth rod it takes into account the max current of the installation and this is put into the equation which brings up a low Ra value.
These are not my suggestions, they are what I was taught on the City & Guilds course in EV charging that I did. I dare say that anyone else who has completed the course would have been taught the same.
If these 'suggestions' amuse you, why not e-mail Bill Allan of NAPIT and laugh loudly at him while you tell him that you know more about EV charging than he does. Meanwhile, kindly desist from trying to me appear foolish. Fair enough?
https://professional-electrician.com/18th-edition/changes-introduce-shock-risk
if the prohibition of PME for EV chargers is to eliminate risk if the supply N is lost (as with metalclad caravans) the I can't see any reason to differentiate between inside or outside. a fault occuring would have a similar result, in or out. then, i have not done any research on EV so my knowledge is limited.
The attached scan is from section 5.3.3.3.1, page 32 of the Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation. The section heading is: Providing a TT earthing system for the charging equipment.
So how do you ensure that the zone of influence of the earth electrode does not overlap the zone of influence of any metalwork connected to the PME earth?
Do you trace and map out every gas and water pipe, buried structural steel etc?
Do you get accurate maps from the DNO showing the extent of the zone of influence of every buried PME electrode in the street, street furniture, repurposed PILC cable etc?
Yes we did some calcs at college when we did the course. It was nigh on impossible. I think 3 earth rods 1 meter apart 2.4 meters deep might do it. Depending on resistivity of the earth.
So they have given us a solution to the problem that is pretty pointless.
How many electricians install an earth rod for an outdoor socket on a pme system, supplementary or otherwise. Cant see much difference myself.
Ha ha, your electrician will be thinking "sxxx, he knows his stuff!"Hi,
I got back in touch with the installer.....and sent the following email:
"There is something I was looking to clarify with you in relation to my recent charger installation.
As you know the charging unit is located internally in my garage, as my primary intensions will be to charge whilst the car is parked inside the garage overnight.
However, as the selected location of the charging unit is next to the garage door, I had also anticipated that the unit could be used for outside charging as the cabling could easily run under the garage door.
A friend of ours has a similar EO installation where their charger is also located internally next to the garage door like ours, therefore enabling him to charge either indoors or outdoors.
However, he had pointed out to me that in order to charge outside there are some safety regulations required on the earthing requirements of the install; such that their installer had advised that an Earthing rod would be required.
It appears within my installation, the charging unit is setup to use our domestic earthing system (i.e. T-N-CS (PME)) and not via an Earthing rod?
I had checked out the EO website regarding this requirement, and as per the latest 18th edition regulations (Section 722.411.4.1) it does appear to state that PME earthing systems should not be used for any outdoor charging, and that the primary mechanism should be an Earthing rod for the EO charging unit.
It looks like this regulation is primarily there as a protection against the risk of fatal shock hazards caused from faults within the supply network of earthing systems (i.e T-N-CS (PME))
So having come across the above information, I am naturally concerned particularly on the safety aspects if one was to charge outside?
As I’ve mentioned, the primary use will be charging indoors, but with the possibility of future and occasion-use for outdoor charging in mind – Hence the selected location of the charging unit is located next to the garage door; allowing cabling to reach the front of the driveway.
Prior and during the install, I was not made aware that there would be any issues based on my anticipated use-cases; and likewise there were no earthing requirements highlighted for consideration.
However, these latest regulations seem to suggest otherwise, and therefore I would want to obtain clarification that I am safe to use the charger as intended (i.e. both indoors and outdoors)
Or is it the case that the earthing setup will need to be changed to cater for outdoor use i.e. Earthing rod?
If an Earthing rod must be used, would I still be able to charge safely whilst parked inside the garage as per my primary intended use i.e. assessment of any extraneous conductive parts that are simultaneously touchable with the vehicle or charge point etc."
Hi,
I got back in touch with the installer.....and sent the following email:
"There is something I was looking to clarify with you in relation to my recent charger installation.
As you know the charging unit is located internally in my garage, as my primary intensions will be to charge whilst the car is parked inside the garage overnight.
However, as the selected location of the charging unit is next to the garage door, I had also anticipated that the unit could be used for outside charging as the cabling could easily run under the garage door.
A friend of ours has a similar EO installation where their charger is also located internally next to the garage door like ours, therefore enabling him to charge either indoors or outdoors.
However, he had pointed out to me that in order to charge outside there are some safety regulations required on the earthing requirements of the install; such that their installer had advised that an Earthing rod would be required.
It appears within my installation, the charging unit is setup to use our domestic earthing system (i.e. T-N-CS (PME)) and not via an Earthing rod?
I had checked out the EO website regarding this requirement, and as per the latest 18th edition regulations (Section 722.411.4.1) it does appear to state that PME earthing systems should not be used for any outdoor charging, and that the primary mechanism should be an Earthing rod for the EO charging unit.
It looks like this regulation is primarily there as a protection against the risk of fatal shock hazards caused from faults within the supply network of earthing systems (i.e T-N-CS (PME))
So having come across the above information, I am naturally concerned particularly on the safety aspects if one was to charge outside?
As I’ve mentioned, the primary use will be charging indoors, but with the possibility of future and occasion-use for outdoor charging in mind – Hence the selected location of the charging unit is located next to the garage door; allowing cabling to reach the front of the driveway.
Prior and during the install, I was not made aware that there would be any issues based on my anticipated use-cases; and likewise there were no earthing requirements highlighted for consideration.
However, these latest regulations seem to suggest otherwise, and therefore I would want to obtain clarification that I am safe to use the charger as intended (i.e. both indoors and outdoors)
Or is it the case that the earthing setup will need to be changed to cater for outdoor use i.e. Earthing rod?
If an Earthing rod must be used, would I still be able to charge safely whilst parked inside the garage as per my primary intended use i.e. assessment of any extraneous conductive parts that are simultaneously touchable with the vehicle or charge point etc."
Ha ha, your electrician will be thinking "sxxx, he knows his stuff!"
I think that's well worded hyeung, however from the little I've seen of your posts you're not one to just accept a half answered question. I wonder what you will do if he just says says 'yes, it's fine for outside'!
Let us the know the response and then we can start the discussion all over again.
Other than the fact the car has four big rubber well insulated wheels.This is a case of technology moving on at a far greater rate than the relevant regulations that should oversee it.
I personally see very little difference to the following,
someone touching a car and ornate iron gate with good foundations
someone touching a car and a water pipe inside the garage
someone sat leaning against a well grounded metal fence whilst tinkering with there electric lawnmower
I would like too see all items used outside the house being fed from an ungrounded isolating transformer with rcd protection.
best of both worlds?
Other than the fact the car has four big rubber well insulated wheels.
I applaud your approach here hyeung, but more so the fact that from your first pic it seems you have an impossibly tidy garage...please tell me that you simply shifted a load of sh*t out of the way before taking the photo...
Hahah the garage is "sorta" tidy, but only becos I've managed to stack things up on one side of the garage. The other side I use to park the car. In that photo I had to move all the sh*t to the other side.....so they could install the cabling/trunking and the charge unit.
I don't think i'm getting anywhere with this.
I don't understand why others are able to have their unit in the garage and charge inside and out...with the earth rod setup. Am I missing something? Is my installer just trying to put me off and keep what I've got.
I've emailed the Manufacturer to also confirm use-cases for both inside and outside charging.
Wish I knew all this before the install, as i'd ended up not getting the EO unit; and probably got something that didn't have any earth rod requirements i.e. Zappi or more pricy Andersen.
I will never suggest someone goes against what the regulations state, especially a customer. However, I will refer you to my post #63. The facts from the report show that absolute worse case scenario (so in reality nowhere near this) you have a 1 in a million additional chance of risk of death or serious injury from using a car charger with PME earthing.
As a professional I have to say don’t use it outside, but if you decide to you have the risk explained above.
If you wish to use your charger to charge the car outside then regulations state the use of a TT earth is required, if the charge point is to be used inside then connection to your house earth is recommended
Looking back at the information you provided, you requested that the charge point be installed inside the garage and we have assumed that this would be for the purpose of charging inside, we will look to clarify this to all customers going forward.
Because your charger is located indoors (by the sounds) it needs to be the same earthing system as the house, which I understand is TNCS. But this is prohibited by regulation if the charger can be used outdoors.Apologies for my lack of understanding. But if there was the possibility of crossing PME earth with TT earth (ie TT setup indoor charger) Are my risk of hazard shocks still the same in the event of a supply fault (pen fault)?
Hyeung, some of the posts above have mentioned TT. There are 2 different forms of this involved in the case of an electric vehicle charging point (EVCP). The case which is mainly being discussed is connecting an earth rod to the actual EVCP. This would be acceptable and meets the regulations. However, the regulations do not always take in to account practicality. There is absolutely no way this method will work for you as you would not need just one little earth rod, you would need multiple deep earth rods littered all around your garden, perhaps dozens, it would cost a fortune and is not practical.Thanks for confirming the hazards on the other way ie indoor charger TT earth setup, and where such supply fault occurs. Touch the car would cause shock hazard.
With that in mind I understand the risk assessment that was mention (section 6.8 code of practice of EV equip installs) would identify these possible hazards if they exist? Ie items in reach...
So with than in mind, my previous question asked was there anything obvious that one could see In the photos of the garage that posted previously that would highlight these types of issue? I appreciate this is not an assessment but just to help me understand if there was anything there that sprung to mind as an issue?
I have a diesel car for sale...very economical, and can be "recharged" at thousands of points all over the world, in a matter of minutes, and each charge will take you about 500 miles.
Just saying...