Fire alarms must be hard wired?

[MakGras]

Hello,

I applied for a retrospective completion certificate for kitchen relocation. The work was done about 7 years ago. The building standard surveyor says that I need to install interlinked smoke and heat alarms to comply with the new fire regulations. I got in touch with different electricians and they recommend installing wireless interlinked detectors.

However, the surveyor said that "the smoke detectors are required to be hard wired and interlinked when the works form part of a Building Warrant application. Battery powered alarms are not suitable."

I read the government "Fire and smoke alarms : changes to the law" documents and it says that wireless interlinked alarms are acceptable. I don't understand why the surveyor is insisting on hard wired alarms.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks in advance.

​

 

[brianmoooore]

Unfortunately, civil law is for those with very deep pockets.

 

[Julie.]

...
I think the legislation is clear, it's the interpretation br the councils that's skewed.

This, sort of.

The current regulations are clear and available for free on the Scottish government website.

However, they are current regulations, when the building work was undertaken ~7 years ago, they were not in place at that time.

The inspector may be applying the standards as identified by the warrant at the original time.

There is of course the possibility that he is not up to date with the recent legislation!

To the OP, you could ask him the direct question via email "we expected to adhere to the Scottish government's published legislation in respect of fire and smoke alarms ( Fire and smoke alarms: changes to the law - https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/), could you please confirm your instructions that these are not to be followed and instead a wired system is to be installed and the 10 year sealed battery type defined as acceptable in the legislation is not acceptable to you"

Or similar.

Of course this is only really worthwhile if you have indeed used suitable alarms i.e
Not removable battery types etc.


EDIT:
don't forget the Scottish building regulations do actually recommend wired in detectors, but local authorities do have the ability to apply local policies and/or accept variations where a strong and reasonable argument is made.

 

[MakGras]

Not quite right, the heat and CO detector is the Ei3028, the Ei3024 is a Heat and Smoke detector, when connected to the mains they have a ten year back up battery.

I think the legislation is clear, it's the interpretation br the councils that's skewed.

@Mike Johnson @brianmoooore You're both correct my mistake.
@Julie. Sorry I am done with the surveyor.I'll do what he asks and carry on with my life.

 

[Julie.]

@Mike Johnson @brianmoooore You're both correct my mistake.
@Julie. Sorry I am done with the surveyor.I'll do what he asks and carry on with my life.

Which alarms did you have in place?

Eg make, model.

 

[Zerax]

I think the legislation is clear, it's the interpretation br the councils that's skewed.

Agreed... a classic example of this was when schools banned the playing of conkers. The schools (the council) claimed that it was due to H&S regulations... which made no reference to conkers whatsoever. It was actually the risk of someone prosecuting the school should there be an accident that prompted them to ban the traditional school game !

 

[MakGras]

Which alarms did you have in place?

Eg make, model.

I had fire angels battery powered alarms which I threw away cos they don't work anymore. The electrician is not happy and got in touch with surveyor and am awaiting answer. Electrician has installed hundreds of Aico EI650/EI603 RF wireless interlinked alarms and wants to do the same in my house. According to the regulations Grade F1(below) they are compliant.

 

[Julie.]

I had fire angels battery powered alarms which I threw away cos they don't work anymore. The electrician is not happy and got in touch with surveyor and am awaiting answer. Electrician has installed hundreds of Aico EI650/EI603 RF wireless interlinked alarms and wants to do the same in my house. According to the regulations Grade F1(below) they are compliant.

I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse, but we do know the regulations, I asked what make and model, most older models used replaceable batteries, which are no longer permitted.

In Scotland, upon new or re-work in a property LD2 type alarms should be installed, it is even included in your extract.

Battery supplied ones are permitted only where they are acceptable to the council.

In the absence of re-work life-long battery versions are acceptable under the minimum standards as found in my link above.

 

[brianmoooore]

I see this is a retrospective application. Has there been any friction between you and building control? I know from experience that the inspectors can be bloody minded if provoked, and insist on things they'd normally let slide.
I was on a barn conversion a few years ago, where relations between building control and the owner had totally broken down (example: To a young looking inspector when he arrived on site. "Hello, sonny, holidays are over. Shouldn't you be back in school?)
Caused all sort of problems with the build, such as insisting that a badly leaning stone wall was retained as it is, instead of knocking down and rebuilding, which any sane person would have done.
Was also the only time that my "grandfather rights" to sign of EICs weren't accepted, and had to use 3rd party sign off.

 

[MakGras]

I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse, but we do know the regulations, I asked what make and model, most older models used replaceable batteries, which are no longer permitted.

In Scotland, upon new or re-work in a property LD2 type alarms should be installed, it is even included in your extract.

Battery supplied ones are permitted only where they are acceptable to the council.

In the absence of re-work life-long battery versions are acceptable under the minimum standards as found in my link above.

@Julie take it easy, I am not doing anything deliberately to upset you or anyone, and I do not know if you know the regulations or not. Fire angel alarms had replaceable batteries and I do not know the exact model and I know they are not permitted. The work to the kitchen was done 7 years ago and the only "rework" is the surveyor wants cooker hood extraction to outside air which means putting pvc ducting. There is a windows and a door leading to the back garden from the kitchen. and that is another dilema, cos I though circulating extractor fans are allowed because there was already one before.

 

[MakGras]

I see this is a retrospective application. Has there been any friction between you and building control? I know from experience that the inspectors can be bloody minded if provoked, and insist on things they'd normally let slide.
I was on a barn conversion a few years ago, where relations between building control and the owner had totally broken down (example: To a young looking inspector when he arrived on site. "Hello, sonny, holidays are over. Shouldn't you be back in school?)
Caused all sort of problems with the build, such as insisting that a badly leaning stone wall was retained as it is, instead of knocking down and rebuilding, which any sane person would have done.
Was also the only time that my "grandfather rights" to sign of EICs weren't accepted, and had to use 3rd party sign off.

I only had few phone calls with the surveyor then a brief video inspection. I don't know about friction but from the get go I feel there is some kind of bias from him. Surveryors should follow the guidelines and should treat everyone the same regardless. But that would be fairy tale world.

 

[Julie.]

I only had few phone calls with the surveyor then a brief video inspection. I don't know about friction but from the get go I feel there is some kind of bias from him. Surveryors should follow the guidelines and should treat everyone the same regardless. But that would be fairy tale world.

To be fair, from personal experience, being English you (and I) will find quite a lot of anti-English sentiment from a number of Scottish people, unfortunate as I have good Scottish friends who aren't in any way like that and find it just as off-putting as we will.

There will also be the fact that as retrospective, there is an implied belief that the lack of compliance at the time the work was done, was most likely to be because it was cheap/below-standard/non-compliant etc, basically there must be a reason that the original work tried to avoid inspection/review.

 

[Deleted account]

Local councils must adhere to the regulations,

however they also have the right to exceed the regulations If they feel the current regulations don’t go far enough.

my parents live in Newcastle, I live in Devon. we both let properties.

The Newcastle council ask more from landlords then they do from me down in Devon. They wanted all landlords with multiple properties to register with council and adhere to certain standards. There is a charge for this. A few hundred quid every few years I think.

I do not have to register with local authority at all. I have same number of properties.

that’s just the way it is .

I believe Newcastle have got it right Even though I’m saving money by not having to be registered down here on sunny Devon.