Fire rated clips - any suggestions?

[sparksfly]

IDEAS
Used an old bucket of large 5" steel nails....
Bang nails in floor/ceiling joists lay cables on top, secured by the odd steel cable tie or recycle wire twisted around cable/nail...job done.
I have also been using black banding on exposed black beams in escape routes & inside plastic trunking.
Sprayed metal conduit saddles white/black for pvc conduit support.
Do we really need some bigwig seal of approval or shall we just get on and do it with some common sense and creativeness.

I do like some of the informative comments written previously and interested on how clips are tested but no more tick boxes on test/inspect sheets please...the more ticks you have the less is read.

To Strima & mattg..I agree, usual appalling lack of guidance/thought on some practical issues in regs...Part lifting flooring in a room? could we not use catenary/steel wire for support ?
1) Steel cable tie T/E cables together, some loose fixed position tie loops.
2) Steel wire threaded through loose loops
3) Pull the lot under floor
4) Nails in joist both ends, steel wire fixed both ends taking the strain, even if there was a slight drop if the ceiling failed cables would not be falling into necks of persons (unless very low ceiling or span too long)

 

[Dave OCD]

Has any testing been carried out using 'normal' clips with the fixing nail always on the bottom/underside of the secured cable ? I just wonder if the clip pins alone would continue to support if the plastic part melted ?

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

Catenary a great idea, fish through with the cable brilliant. Testing of clips, generally the testing is done with the cable it needs to support we used FP100 or 200 Gold but requested the heat was directly on the clips. this is at 930degrees + or - 40 so up to 970 degrees for two hours. The cables are also hit with basically a hammer and sprayed with water occasionally throughout this period. this replicates the heat, the fire brigade hoses and water and falling debris. The clips have to remain in place supporting the cables throughout. so the likelihood of the pin still supporting the cables as mentioned earlier is low to zero.

 

[Octopus]

This reg change is nearly as daft and ill thought out as the metal clad fuseboards ..

What is the guidance for cabling on sheds ..... Metal clips that last longer than the wooden structure they are attached too...

 

[Bellendian]

To be honest I think the reg is a half reasonable attempt to solve the relatively simple issue of dealing with surface mounted wiring, which could possibly have been secured with nothing more than the double sided tape on the back of the trunking, prior to this.
On the other hand I take issue with a number of Malcolms points.
His definition of premature collapse as being any failure prior to intentional destruction by way of demolition is clearly absurd.
He also states that use of water to extinguish a fire on upper floors may give rise to the plasterboard ceilling below falling through, therefore allowing wiring to collapse. I am unsure of his argument here. If the plasterboard had survived the fire prior to impact of firefighting water, or was never exposed to fire, then the use of metal clips is irrelevant, and plastic clips would be just as effective in supporting the wiring in this situation.
As for statements that plasterboard isn't fire proof, just fire resistant, but we should use metal fire proof clips...I ask this. Why is it that steel structural members require protection from fire, and why is it that this protection is often delivered by means of plasterboard cladding?

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

I think we can get tangled up in why the regulations were brought in and also the scope and scale of the problem. if we consider a room is a compartment designed to keep occupants safe then the door, walls and ceiling make up the compartment and these are the structural elements that must last as long as possible, so doors ceiling and plasterboard walls in a new build all 30 minutes protection. Take the same in a twenty-year-old block of flats with concrete walls ceiling etc then the wiring could be in trunking at the high level fixed to the concrete with plastic plugs. Because of the difference in heat, the trunking can start to fail and collapse into the cooler zone below where the occupants are escaping or the fire brigade could still be operating and then entanglement becomes a real issue and a cause of death. Another thing we have found is where the heat (hot air) can travel along trunking and pop off the lid a long way from the fire and stop evacuations due to entanglement this way. Long lengths of steel are liable to collapse from stress and twisting due to heat so likewise, we protect with twin layers of fireboard to give some protection. In a standard house, the risks are much lower than in blocks of flats and commercial buildings because of the different building methods and the numbers of occupants.

 

[Octopus]

I think we can get tangled up in why the regulations were brought in and also the scope and scale of the problem. if we consider a room is a compartment designed to keep occupants safe then the door, walls and ceiling make up the compartment and these are the structural elements that must last as long as possible, so doors ceiling and plasterboard walls in a new build all 30 minutes protection. Take the same in a twenty-year-old block of flats with concrete walls ceiling etc then the wiring could be in trunking at the high level fixed to the concrete with plastic plugs. Because of the difference in heat, the trunking can start to fail and collapse into the cooler zone below where the occupants are escaping or the fire brigade could still be operating and then entanglement becomes a real issue and a cause of death. Another thing we have found is where the heat (hot air) can travel along trunking and pop off the lid a long way from the fire and stop evacuations due to entanglement this way. Long lengths of steel are liable to collapse from stress and twisting due to heat so likewise, we protect with twin layers of fireboard to give some protection. In a standard house, the risks are much lower than in blocks of flats and commercial buildings because of the different building methods and the numbers of occupants.

Disagree.

Half baked, ill thought out regulation with no guidance

That's why we are discussing this

If clear instruction was given tio justify, and explain, plus clear guidance on interpretation then it would be ok

We have none of the above.

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

in some ways, I think you are right NICEIC and NAPIT along with all the other bodies do not give sufficient information to electricians as to why this is needed or how to resolve it.
As an ex spark and safety professional, I put myself forward to try but I also designed one of the first clips to resolve this so I am biased.
All I can say is "metal clips everywhere" will undoubtedly save the lives of both firefighters and persons trying to escape fires.

 

[Darkwood]

If they gave detailed information what we expect to be given to carry out our works then they wouldn't make millions off the back off guidance books etc, I suspect the industry is deliberately making some regulations ambiguous as it leads to a side market that makes them a fortune. What niggles me is the fact we pay such high costs for these regulations then spend months trying to decipher some of them, it isn't because we are thick or inexperienced it is because those that create these regulations are sat at a desk and not out in the real world imho and as I suspect that creating a regulation that is clear and concise and easy to interpret will ultimately lose them millions in profit.

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

I couldn't agree with you more, they don't discuss commercial and house rewire /newbuild separately. They give no reasons for doing things they just state what they want and the sparks are left floundering. The language in the 18th edition makes it even more complex. I am on here and a lot of other places just to try and give support where I can, so always willing to help on here where I can.

 

[Darkwood]

To be fair this isn't just the BS7671, it is across the field of regulations be it the Fire regulations or Machine code both of which I use a lot, I don't expect the regulation to spoon feed all situations as that is impractical and impossible, what I do expect is enough clear guidance that one can then understand what the regulation is and why thus can use this to make a informed decision on situations that are not really covered or exampled by the regulations.

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

Agreed and the Building Regs are the worst of the lot, I am putting a forum similar to this on the clips website purely to answer questions like we have had on here. How can it be with such a long run that the knowledge out there is minimal and sparks are struggling to find answers?

 

[Darkwood]

Too factors, more ambiguity in regulations and dumbing down over decades of tutoring, when I did mine in the 80's we left college understanding why regulations existed, not just to parrot them, nowadays the system has been dumbed down so much to allow for poorer educated school leavers and for political gain of whichever party is in government, students passing colleges ticks voters boxes hence dumbing down the whole process has political gains... this is also why the general education system now produces kids that cannot do basic maths.

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

You may be right, I did a five-year apprenticeship that has now been slashed.
I must say I do a lot of asbestos awareness and fire training along with Manual Handling etc and the younger sparks seem to be very good. All of the apprentices placed with me have gone on to shine so I think the skill set is still there maybe its the way they are managed that has changed because I see a lot of bored youngsters on site who knows?

 

[Octopus]

Something like this would clear up the ambiguity:

"Cables installed in areas considered escape routes need sufficient protection against fire. This is specifically relevant where cables are above suspended ceilings and / or attached to walls in combustible capping or trunking.

Such additional protection is not required if cables are run perpendicular to the joists and above a plasterboard ceiling.

Should the cables be run along the side of a joist above a plasterboard ceiling for more than 1 meter, then suitable clips resistant to fire should be used."


Tin hat on

 

[Octopus]

Agreed and the Building Regs are the worst of the lot, I am putting a forum similar to this on the clips website purely to answer questions like we have had on here. How can it be with such a long run that the knowledge out there is minimal and sparks are struggling to find answers?

The building regs produced by the DCLG are completely hopeless, open to interpretation. Its not answers people need its less ambiguity.

Compliance is rarely checked

Its not just sparks .......... its all trades who struggle ................

 

[Bellendian]

So one simple line turns into an essay! Imagine that throughout the regs! It would end up being 800notes at that rate!

If the regs end up too prescriptive then it produces more problems than it solves. If for no other reason, than there is always more than one way to skin a cat!

In the eyes of those who write the regs, the suspended ceilling problem is doubtless non existent, because obviously all cables are run in tray or basket....

 

[Octopus]

In the eyes of those who write the regs, the suspended ceiling problem is doubtless non existent, because obviously all cables are run in tray or basket....

ha ha, like all installations are done that way ......

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

for me as long as they are perpendicular so pass through the joists then this is perfectly understandable and can be followed by everyone see no tin hat required.
I don't understand how H & S like me do site audits and never check what is inside trunking I do every time and explain why! what about NICEIC visits?
Why not have one tick box on the certificate "all areas protected" none of this is rocket science but nothing is done.
I also do H & S visits for insurance companies if the cert had a tick I wouldn't check because the spark has confirmed he/she is competent and has done the work correctly. perhaps I just expect too much?

 

[pirate]

Regs simply put the onus on you..and if you expect step-by-step guidance then you will get the same response as DIYers get on here...
Question: If I install cables in this location, is there a risk they might cause an obstruction in the event of fire?
Answer: Yes, they might. Thus, I will install them, to the best of my ability and with the appropriate fixings, so as to minimise that risk.
If I doubt my ability...to assess or install...then I will seek expert advice, and having sought and obtained that advice, or having assessed and made my own decision, I will record that so I may answer any questions at a later date.

If I am unhappy with that, I will not install.

 

[Octopus]

So @FLICK ...... you’ve been dishing out the dumb rating like confetti

But offering up no opinions of your own

Sad really .......

 

[DPG]

Have you kicked his dog or summat Murdoch?

 

[Octopus]

Have you kicked his dog or summat Murdoch?

Ha ha ... that’s funny

No idea who he is and just reinforces why this rating has no place on this forum ....

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

Excellent response and says it all, for those looking for cables for Twin and Earth have a look at SWA they have a number of different clips by different manufacturers that can be used.

 

[Octopus]

Excellent response and says it all, for those looking for cables for Twin and Earth have a look at SWA they have a number of different clips by different manufacturers that can be used.

Hum ......... which response? Which post #?

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

Regs simply put the onus on you..and if you expect step-by-step guidance then you will get the same response as DIYers get on here...
Question: If I install cables in this location, is there a risk they might cause an obstruction in the event of fire?
Answer: Yes, they might. Thus, I will install them, to the best of my ability and with the appropriate fixings, so as to minimise that risk.
If I doubt my ability...to assess or install...then I will seek expert advice, and having sought and obtained that advice, or having assessed and made my own decision, I will record that so I may answer any questions at a later date.

If I am unhappy with that, I will not install.



This post attached by Pirate is the one I praised, it sets out what we should all do in the same circumstances. post number 60

 

[acvc]

I agree with you Bellendian.

Note 3 of 521.10.202 states,

"This regulation precludes, for example, the use of non-metallic cable-clips or cable-ties as the sole means of support where cables are clipped direct to exposed surfaces ........".

I take this to mean that above a plasterboard ceiling is acceptable.

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

Having been around court cases and H & S prosecutions for many years explain how would you write a risk assessment that says this unknown type of plasterboard will be my only means of support for the cables I install?
There is no interpretation of this that could stop a case of corporate manslaughter against you if a firefighter or escaping person was trapped in the cables and subsequently died.
If you first fix before the ceiling goes up, you clip the cables in place or run them through the joists what is the difference?

 

[Darkwood]

Coincidence - I am currently wiring a full factory fire system out, its all surface in P clips and screwed to fire-board, the floors are divided by concrete and there are no ignition sources within the created void so my risk assessment is simple and I have omitted all detectors from the voids which due to there size would usually need detectors installed, saving about 3k in labour and gear.

 

[Richard Burns]

Having been around court cases and H & S prosecutions for many years explain how would you write a risk assessment that says this unknown type of plasterboard will be my only means of support for the cables I install?

The risk assessment would be that BS7671 specifically permits the installation method of "no fixings" for the cable type being installed, therefore this is acceptable.

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

An answer to Darkwood #69. the voids may need detection because they allow smoke to travel undetected especially if the void is sealed with an intumous sealant and has sealed or no access points, in this case, the smoke would remain trapped in the void and undetected until the heat/flames break through.

Richard Burns #70. I, as you would expect, would disagree completely
to me the regulations, past custom and practice all lead to fixing the cables correctly. I state this as my interpretation only and it is the guidance all of the electrical contractors I support are following.

In no way is this intended to bring the wrath of others onto my head from other forum members.
As stated earlier I am here to support, advise and give my professional support only.

 

[Richard Burns]

Richard Burns #70. I, as you would expect, would disagree completely
to me the regulations, past custom and practice all lead to fixing the cables correctly. I state this as my interpretation only and it is the guidance all of the electrical contractors I support are following.

It is certainly your choice to disagree with the regulations, especially as the specific permission is informative, and for you and others to follow alternative guidance that is in excess of the regulations.
There is almost no chance of this being considered in any way a failure.
However if you are to consider a risk assessment from a compliance point of view it could not be considered inappropriate to follow the information in BS7671 to the letter.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Bloody hell, is the plasterboard debate still rumbling on?

 

[Malcolm Broomfield]

We will leave it here but plasterboard is NOT a means of supporting cables.

 

[Octopus]

We will leave it here but plasterboard is NOT a means of supporting cables.

But for lots of cowboys ......... is it

 

[Bait Account]

So @FLICK ...... you’ve been dishing out the dumb rating like confetti

But offering up no opinions of your own

Sad really .......

Yea but its funny to use on muppets

 

[Bait Account]

So @FLICK ...... you’ve been dishing out the dumb rating like confetti

But offering up no opinions of your own

Sad really .......

Yea but its funny to use on muppets

 

[Octopus]

Yea but its funny to use on muppets

You ARE the muppet.

 

[Bait Account]

You ARE the muppet.

It would take a lot better than that to annoy me weirdo.

 

[DPG]

Troll alert. Flick do you have anything useful to say?