Ideas welcome rcbo replacement

[Gazthesparky]

So I have a job coming up, a customer wants most of the socket fronts replacing in there house.

The board is an old GET board with MCBs not an RCD in sight.

As GET are discontinued I can not get RCBOs to swap out the MCBs

So I have a couple of proteus RCBOs although I hate them they seem to be the same size as the GET gear so Im hoping they fit properly. I don’t like mixing manufacturers but I don’t have a choice.

Failing they don’t fit I’m going to fit a small dB by the side of the existing one leave the MCBs in place and wire the RCBOs off them and then to the circuits.

This is a lot of work but I cannot see another way around it.

I don’t want to put a front end RCD in the sub board as this means all the sockets will be on the one RCD meaning you loose everything when a fault arises

I have suggested a board swap but they had the board change 5 or 6 years ago so don’t want to go down that route.

So open to any other creative ideas instead of having to pull all 3 ring circuits into a new board.

Cheers

 

[Pete999]

Fit an upfront RCD to cover all circuits:
Fit RCD 13Amp socket outlets:
Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch.
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.

 

[Toneyz]

My first port of call would be calling Schnider, there are companies on the internet that deal with obsolete protective devices or maybe eBay but caution of a good seller not fake etc. There are a few protective devices that seem to be the same design pattern (probably from the same manufacturing plant) just different livery.

 

[Spoon]

In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.

I''ll second that...

The RCD socket outlets are expensive. Not good is you are doing lots.

 

[Toneyz]

So I have a job coming up, a customer wants most of the socket fronts replacing in there house.

The board is an old GET board with MCBs not an RCD in sight.

As GET are discontinued I can not get RCBOs to swap out the MCBs

So I have a couple of proteus RCBOs although I hate them they seem to be the same size as the GET gear so Im hoping they fit properly. I don’t like mixing manufacturers but I don’t have a choice.

Failing they don’t fit I’m going to fit a small dB by the side of the existing one leave the MCBs in place and wire the RCBOs off them and then to the circuits. DON'T YOU MEAN RCD

This is a lot of work but I cannot see another way around it.

I don’t want to put a front end RCD in the sub board as this means all the sockets will be on the one RCD meaning you loose everything when a fault arises

I have suggested a board swap but they had the board change 5 or 6 years ago so don’t want to go down that route.

So open to any other creative ideas instead of having to pull all 3 ring circuits into a new board.

Cheers

 

[Toneyz]

Fit an upfront RCD to cover all circuits:Bad design against regs and could trip out due to cumulative leakage currents /faults on other circuits.
Fit RCD 13Amp socket outlets: More expensive, could need deeper boxes and may not be available in the chosen design of the plate.
Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch. Agree.
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea

Posted comments rather than disagee button Pete

 

[Pete999]

You were saying?

 

[Toneyz]

You were saying?

I have typed in comments on the replies.

 

[johnduffell]

If it's not adding any new wiring or socket outlets why the requirement for rcd protection? Is that something the customer requested? If so they should pay for the cu change.

 

[Andy78]

I would quote to swap the CU if RCD protection has been requested. Not your fault the board they paid for 5-6 years ago was not compliant when installed. By the time you have fed another small CU with RCBOs and diverted the circuits over it won't be much more.

I would definitely not squidge some proteus piece of junk into another CU.

 

[Midwest]

If it’s a like for like replacement, i.e single socket for single socket, i was advised by my scheme that would be construed as maintenance.

I would recommend the importance of rcd protection to the customer though. 6 years ago, I thought most cu’s would of had rcd protection on sockets?

 

[Gazthesparky]

Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch.
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.

10mm bonding to water and gas are in place

Don’t like MCBs and rcbo In series but only other option would be remove the MCBs in the board install a new board using Henley blocks on the tails. I’d then have to fit an isolator before the Henley blocks to give one means of isolation for the whole installation.

I could use RCDs but there are 3 circuits so I would need a 6way board to give me 6 ways as an RCD is double width

I could make a sub main from just 1 MCB to the new board but again this means that all the sockets are then on 1 breaker meaning you loose all the sockets

If it's not adding any new wiring or socket outlets why the requirement for rcd protection? Is that something the customer requested? If so they should pay for the cu change.

Most of the sockets in the house are being swapped so a lot of alterations taking place.

Most of the sockets are being swapped to doubles using converter sockets as the customer doesn’t want the mess to the decoration. 1 or 2 socket back boxes are being changed.

I could just turn a blind eye to RCD protection and mark it as a deviation on the Certification but I don’t feel that that is the honest and safe way to do it.

 

[Gazthesparky]

If it’s a like for like replacement, i.e single socket for single socket, i was advised by my scheme that would be construed as maintenance.

I would recommend the importance of rcd protection to the customer though. 6 years ago, I thought most cu’s would of had rcd protection on sockets?

It’s most if not all of the sockets in the house being changed if I was doing one or maybe two I would list as a deviation on the certification

It amazes me that the amount of mcb boards I have come across without any RCD protection on. I thought that RCD protection at least on socket circuits has been around for a long time so there shouldn’t be any cases of this

 

[Midwest]

Have you advised you client, they had a non compliant CU fitted?

 

[Octopus]

As you are not changing the circuit, then swap the fronts ..... And make sure your invoice states that rcd protection for the circuit is advised

 

[Midwest]

It’s most if not all of the sockets in the house being changed if I was doing one or maybe two I would list as a deviation on the certification

Personally, I would change one or two, but not the whole house. Sort of goes against the spirit of just maintenance.

 

[johnduffell]

This does sound grey area, you can swap as many as you like as long as you don't add new socket outlets, but converting a single to a double kind of adds a second outlet even if no extra accessory.
Regarding the deviation, omission of rcd protection where it is required is not a deviation. A deviation is where you don't comply with the regs but your solution provides the same level of safety. Omission of rcds would certainly lower the safety.

 

[westward10]

Did GET rcbos actually exist in the first place?

 

[Pete999]

Posted comments rather than disagee button Pete

Not sure what you mean Ant, you disagree with my answer , yes? a reason would be nice

 

[Pete999]

I have typed in comments on the replies.

Sorry Mate I must be having a thick moment cuz I see nil comments.

 

[Pete999]

10mm bonding to water and gas are in place

Don’t like MCBs and rcbo In series but only other option would be remove the MCBs in the board install a new board using Henley blocks on the tails. I’d then have to fit an isolator before the Henley blocks to give one means of isolation for the whole installation.

I could use RCDs but there are 3 circuits so I would need a 6way board to give me 6 ways as an RCD is double width

I could make a sub main from just 1 MCB to the new board but again this means that all the sockets are then on 1 breaker meaning you loose all the sockets



Most of the sockets in the house are being swapped so a lot of alterations taking place.

Most of the sockets are being swapped to doubles using converter sockets as the customer doesn’t want the mess to the decoration. 1 or 2 socket back boxes are being changed.

I could just turn a blind eye to RCD protection and mark it as a deviation on the Certification but I don’t feel that that is the honest and safe way to do it.

Fit an RCD in a separate enclosure to cover the whole board, that way all your circuits are covered. Turning a blind eye as you say, is not a professional judgement imo, if the client ignores your advice, and won't pay for the required work, then personally you have to tell them sorry get someone who will do the work and ignore the safety issues, it's your choice, and your name on the certificate, should you take your option to turn a blind eye. Tin hat on.

 

[Gazthesparky]

Fit an RCD in a separate enclosure to cover the whole board, that way all your circuits are covered. Turning a blind eye as you say, is not a professional judgement imo, if the client ignores your advice, and won't pay for the required work, then personally you have to tell them sorry get someone who will do the work and ignore the safety issues, it's your choice, and your name on the certificate, should you take your option to turn a blind eye. Tin hat on.

As I said in my post I don’t think it’s the right answer to turn a blind eye. I don’t think it’s very professional to not install additional RCD safety protection.

I was making reference to the posts who stated that changing a socket front is classed as maintain so you could in a round about way get round it.

I don’t want to just install a front end RCD as this means that the customers loose there whole Supply and again this deviates from the regs as they state that the circuits should be arranged to cause the least distruptipn

I’m planning I’m installing the RCBOs either in the board or in a board by the side as I feel this is the most professional route to go

 

[Andy78]

I’m planning I’m installing the RCBOs either in the board or in a board by the side as I feel this is the most professional route to go

Would not be very professional in my opinion to install differing brands of devices in the same board.

A separate board would be an acceptable way forward, either routing the existing circuits through RCDs keeping the OCPD in the main CU, or re-routing the final circuits to a new RCBO board.

By the time you have done either of those though the cost to the customer won't be far off a CU swap.

 

[Octopus]

Fit an RCD in a separate enclosure to cover the whole board, that way all your circuits are covered. Turning a blind eye as you say, is not a professional judgement imo, if the client ignores your advice, and won't pay for the required work, then personally you have to tell them sorry get someone who will do the work and ignore the safety issues, it's your choice, and your name on the certificate, should you take your option to turn a blind eye. Tin hat on.

Any Tom, Dick or Harry would change the sockets ............ so do the next best thing and do the work, test the circuit and note that RCD protection isn't present.

Life is too short to persuade people to do the right thing and you need to earn a living.

 

[Pete999]

Any Tom, Dick or Harry would change the sockets ............ so do the next best thing and do the work, test the circuit and note that RCD protection isn't present.

Life is too short to persuade people to do the right thing and you need to earn a living.

I gave you a disagree Murdoch, simply because Sockets need RCD protection, just because as you put it "any Tom, Dick or Harry could, and do swap sockets and ignore the omission of RCDs throught nothing more than ignorance of the Regs, isn't an excuse for an Electrically Competent person to do the same, in my opinion.

 

[Octopus]

I gave you a disagree Murdoch, simply because Sockets need RCD protection, just because as you put it "any Tom, Dick or Harry could, and do swap sockets and ignore the omission of RCDs throught nothing more than ignorance of the Regs, isn't an excuse for an Electrically Competent person to do the same, in my opinion.

And I've given you a disagree because testing the circuit properly AND advising the customer that they should have RCD protection is appropriate. NO modifications are being made to the circuit.

Each to their own ............... and yes I can sleep at night

 

[Pete999]

And I've given you a disagree because testing the circuit properly AND advising the customer that they should have RCD protection is appropriate. NO modifications are being made to the circuit.

Each to their own ............... and yes I can sleep at night

So we had better say we disagree with each other then, and leave it at that.

 

[Octopus]

Problem is that so many people don't understand the regs, and some simply don't want to hear .........

I'm so looking forward to AFDD's - not

As I said to the IET yesterday at Elex ............ they need to get the Plain Engelish Society to review all their publications....

 

[Pete999]

So we had better say we disagree with each other then, and leave it at that.

We'll be asking each of for a date at this rate Mate.

 

[Octopus]

We'll be asking each of for a date at this rate Mate.

Can't imagine anything worse ...........