Ideas welcome rcbo replacement

[Gazthesparky]

So I have a job coming up, a customer wants most of the socket fronts replacing in there house.

The board is an old GET board with MCBs not an RCD in sight.

As GET are discontinued I can not get RCBOs to swap out the MCBs

So I have a couple of proteus RCBOs although I hate them they seem to be the same size as the GET gear so Im hoping they fit properly. I don’t like mixing manufacturers but I don’t have a choice.

Failing they don’t fit I’m going to fit a small dB by the side of the existing one leave the MCBs in place and wire the RCBOs off them and then to the circuits.

This is a lot of work but I cannot see another way around it.

I don’t want to put a front end RCD in the sub board as this means all the sockets will be on the one RCD meaning you loose everything when a fault arises

I have suggested a board swap but they had the board change 5 or 6 years ago so don’t want to go down that route.

So open to any other creative ideas instead of having to pull all 3 ring circuits into a new board.

Cheers

 

[Pete999]

Fit an upfront RCD to cover all circuits:
Fit RCD 13Amp socket outlets:
Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch.
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.

 

[Toneyz]

My first port of call would be calling Schnider, there are companies on the internet that deal with obsolete protective devices or maybe eBay but caution of a good seller not fake etc. There are a few protective devices that seem to be the same design pattern (probably from the same manufacturing plant) just different livery.

 

[Spoon]

In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.

I''ll second that...

The RCD socket outlets are expensive. Not good is you are doing lots.

 

[Toneyz]

So I have a job coming up, a customer wants most of the socket fronts replacing in there house.

The board is an old GET board with MCBs not an RCD in sight.

As GET are discontinued I can not get RCBOs to swap out the MCBs

So I have a couple of proteus RCBOs although I hate them they seem to be the same size as the GET gear so Im hoping they fit properly. I don’t like mixing manufacturers but I don’t have a choice.

Failing they don’t fit I’m going to fit a small dB by the side of the existing one leave the MCBs in place and wire the RCBOs off them and then to the circuits. DON'T YOU MEAN RCD

This is a lot of work but I cannot see another way around it.

I don’t want to put a front end RCD in the sub board as this means all the sockets will be on the one RCD meaning you loose everything when a fault arises

I have suggested a board swap but they had the board change 5 or 6 years ago so don’t want to go down that route.

So open to any other creative ideas instead of having to pull all 3 ring circuits into a new board.

Cheers

 

[Toneyz]

Fit an upfront RCD to cover all circuits:Bad design against regs and could trip out due to cumulative leakage currents /faults on other circuits.
Fit RCD 13Amp socket outlets: More expensive, could need deeper boxes and may not be available in the chosen design of the plate.
Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch. Agree.
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea

Posted comments rather than disagee button Pete

 

[Pete999]

You were saying?

 

[Toneyz]

You were saying?

I have typed in comments on the replies.

 

[johnduffell]

If it's not adding any new wiring or socket outlets why the requirement for rcd protection? Is that something the customer requested? If so they should pay for the cu change.

 

[Andy78]

I would quote to swap the CU if RCD protection has been requested. Not your fault the board they paid for 5-6 years ago was not compliant when installed. By the time you have fed another small CU with RCBOs and diverted the circuits over it won't be much more.

I would definitely not squidge some proteus piece of junk into another CU.

 

[Midwest]

If it’s a like for like replacement, i.e single socket for single socket, i was advised by my scheme that would be construed as maintenance.

I would recommend the importance of rcd protection to the customer though. 6 years ago, I thought most cu’s would of had rcd protection on sockets?

 

[Gazthesparky]

Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch.
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.

10mm bonding to water and gas are in place

Don’t like MCBs and rcbo In series but only other option would be remove the MCBs in the board install a new board using Henley blocks on the tails. I’d then have to fit an isolator before the Henley blocks to give one means of isolation for the whole installation.

I could use RCDs but there are 3 circuits so I would need a 6way board to give me 6 ways as an RCD is double width

I could make a sub main from just 1 MCB to the new board but again this means that all the sockets are then on 1 breaker meaning you loose all the sockets

If it's not adding any new wiring or socket outlets why the requirement for rcd protection? Is that something the customer requested? If so they should pay for the cu change.

Most of the sockets in the house are being swapped so a lot of alterations taking place.

Most of the sockets are being swapped to doubles using converter sockets as the customer doesn’t want the mess to the decoration. 1 or 2 socket back boxes are being changed.

I could just turn a blind eye to RCD protection and mark it as a deviation on the Certification but I don’t feel that that is the honest and safe way to do it.

 

[Gazthesparky]

If it’s a like for like replacement, i.e single socket for single socket, i was advised by my scheme that would be construed as maintenance.

I would recommend the importance of rcd protection to the customer though. 6 years ago, I thought most cu’s would of had rcd protection on sockets?

It’s most if not all of the sockets in the house being changed if I was doing one or maybe two I would list as a deviation on the certification

It amazes me that the amount of mcb boards I have come across without any RCD protection on. I thought that RCD protection at least on socket circuits has been around for a long time so there shouldn’t be any cases of this

 

[Midwest]

Have you advised you client, they had a non compliant CU fitted?

 

[Octopus]

As you are not changing the circuit, then swap the fronts ..... And make sure your invoice states that rcd protection for the circuit is advised

 

[Midwest]

It’s most if not all of the sockets in the house being changed if I was doing one or maybe two I would list as a deviation on the certification

Personally, I would change one or two, but not the whole house. Sort of goes against the spirit of just maintenance.

 

[johnduffell]

This does sound grey area, you can swap as many as you like as long as you don't add new socket outlets, but converting a single to a double kind of adds a second outlet even if no extra accessory.
Regarding the deviation, omission of rcd protection where it is required is not a deviation. A deviation is where you don't comply with the regs but your solution provides the same level of safety. Omission of rcds would certainly lower the safety.

 

[westward10]

Did GET rcbos actually exist in the first place?

 

[Pete999]

Posted comments rather than disagee button Pete

Not sure what you mean Ant, you disagree with my answer , yes? a reason would be nice

 

[Pete999]

I have typed in comments on the replies.

Sorry Mate I must be having a thick moment cuz I see nil comments.

 

[Pete999]

10mm bonding to water and gas are in place

Don’t like MCBs and rcbo In series but only other option would be remove the MCBs in the board install a new board using Henley blocks on the tails. I’d then have to fit an isolator before the Henley blocks to give one means of isolation for the whole installation.

I could use RCDs but there are 3 circuits so I would need a 6way board to give me 6 ways as an RCD is double width

I could make a sub main from just 1 MCB to the new board but again this means that all the sockets are then on 1 breaker meaning you loose all the sockets



Most of the sockets in the house are being swapped so a lot of alterations taking place.

Most of the sockets are being swapped to doubles using converter sockets as the customer doesn’t want the mess to the decoration. 1 or 2 socket back boxes are being changed.

I could just turn a blind eye to RCD protection and mark it as a deviation on the Certification but I don’t feel that that is the honest and safe way to do it.

Fit an RCD in a separate enclosure to cover the whole board, that way all your circuits are covered. Turning a blind eye as you say, is not a professional judgement imo, if the client ignores your advice, and won't pay for the required work, then personally you have to tell them sorry get someone who will do the work and ignore the safety issues, it's your choice, and your name on the certificate, should you take your option to turn a blind eye. Tin hat on.

 

[Gazthesparky]

Fit an RCD in a separate enclosure to cover the whole board, that way all your circuits are covered. Turning a blind eye as you say, is not a professional judgement imo, if the client ignores your advice, and won't pay for the required work, then personally you have to tell them sorry get someone who will do the work and ignore the safety issues, it's your choice, and your name on the certificate, should you take your option to turn a blind eye. Tin hat on.

As I said in my post I don’t think it’s the right answer to turn a blind eye. I don’t think it’s very professional to not install additional RCD safety protection.

I was making reference to the posts who stated that changing a socket front is classed as maintain so you could in a round about way get round it.

I don’t want to just install a front end RCD as this means that the customers loose there whole Supply and again this deviates from the regs as they state that the circuits should be arranged to cause the least distruptipn

I’m planning I’m installing the RCBOs either in the board or in a board by the side as I feel this is the most professional route to go

 

[Andy78]

I’m planning I’m installing the RCBOs either in the board or in a board by the side as I feel this is the most professional route to go

Would not be very professional in my opinion to install differing brands of devices in the same board.

A separate board would be an acceptable way forward, either routing the existing circuits through RCDs keeping the OCPD in the main CU, or re-routing the final circuits to a new RCBO board.

By the time you have done either of those though the cost to the customer won't be far off a CU swap.

 

[Octopus]

Fit an RCD in a separate enclosure to cover the whole board, that way all your circuits are covered. Turning a blind eye as you say, is not a professional judgement imo, if the client ignores your advice, and won't pay for the required work, then personally you have to tell them sorry get someone who will do the work and ignore the safety issues, it's your choice, and your name on the certificate, should you take your option to turn a blind eye. Tin hat on.

Any Tom, Dick or Harry would change the sockets ............ so do the next best thing and do the work, test the circuit and note that RCD protection isn't present.

Life is too short to persuade people to do the right thing and you need to earn a living.

 

[Pete999]

Any Tom, Dick or Harry would change the sockets ............ so do the next best thing and do the work, test the circuit and note that RCD protection isn't present.

Life is too short to persuade people to do the right thing and you need to earn a living.

I gave you a disagree Murdoch, simply because Sockets need RCD protection, just because as you put it "any Tom, Dick or Harry could, and do swap sockets and ignore the omission of RCDs throught nothing more than ignorance of the Regs, isn't an excuse for an Electrically Competent person to do the same, in my opinion.

 

[Octopus]

I gave you a disagree Murdoch, simply because Sockets need RCD protection, just because as you put it "any Tom, Dick or Harry could, and do swap sockets and ignore the omission of RCDs throught nothing more than ignorance of the Regs, isn't an excuse for an Electrically Competent person to do the same, in my opinion.

And I've given you a disagree because testing the circuit properly AND advising the customer that they should have RCD protection is appropriate. NO modifications are being made to the circuit.

Each to their own ............... and yes I can sleep at night

 

[Pete999]

And I've given you a disagree because testing the circuit properly AND advising the customer that they should have RCD protection is appropriate. NO modifications are being made to the circuit.

Each to their own ............... and yes I can sleep at night

So we had better say we disagree with each other then, and leave it at that.

 

[Octopus]

Problem is that so many people don't understand the regs, and some simply don't want to hear .........

I'm so looking forward to AFDD's - not

As I said to the IET yesterday at Elex ............ they need to get the Plain Engelish Society to review all their publications....

 

[Pete999]

So we had better say we disagree with each other then, and leave it at that.

We'll be asking each of for a date at this rate Mate.

 

[Octopus]

We'll be asking each of for a date at this rate Mate.

Can't imagine anything worse ...........

 

[Pete999]

Can't imagine anything worse ...........

Nor me uggghhh, but my Mrs still loves me, I think.

 

[richy3333]

And I've given you a disagree because testing the circuit properly AND advising the customer that they should have RCD protection is appropriate. NO modifications are being made to the circuit.

Each to their own ............... and yes I can sleep at night

Have to agree with you here Murdoch. Socket outlets per se in this scenario. Don’t need RCD protection at this time unless the OP has omitted any info. I’m more worried about the suggestion of mixing different manufacturers parts contrary to IET and BEAMA guidelines.

Price to do the job properly else walk away.

 

[Midwest]

And I've given you a disagree because testing the circuit properly AND advising the customer that they should have RCD protection is appropriate. NO modifications are being made to the circuit.

Each to their own ............... and yes I can sleep at night

The whole house?

 

[Octopus]

The whole house?

Why not .... you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink ......

It’s only changing sockets ....

 

[Toneyz]

Fit an upfront RCD to cover all circuits:------------------------------
Fit RCD 13Amp socket outlets:-------------------
Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch.-----------
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.
Pete,
Look at post 6 I have added to your sentences if you still can't see I will retype.

 

[Midwest]

Why not .... you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink ......

It’s only changing sockets ....

It seems the electrician who replaced the CU had a similar attitude, when there was the opportunity or requirement to install additional protection via RCD. This new work includes changing some of the back boxes, and single sockets are being replaced with twin conversions.

The guidance I was given at the time, if the replacement is like for like & is because of damage etc, then it would be considered just maintenance. This doesn't appear to be just that.

Not something I would do personally. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

 

[Gazthesparky]

Have to agree with you here Murdoch. Socket outlets per se in this scenario. Don’t need RCD protection at this time unless the OP has omitted any info. I’m more worried about the suggestion of mixing different manufacturers parts contrary to IET and BEAMA guidelines.

Price to do the job properly else walk away.

Just need to understand why RCD protection isn’t required? Yes if you were replacing 1x damaged socket front then that’s maintenance but every socket is being touched.

With regards to different manufactures parts in the consumer unit normally I would never mix and match but on this occasion the GET are obsolete and been taken over by schneider I belive so will look at trying to get one of those to fit properly. It’s like Vw,audi,Skoda, all parts share it’s the same company. I have a feeling though I will go the external RCD route

In terms of pricing to do the job properly, I had informed and spoke to the customer regarding upgrading the consumer unit to include RCD protection.

The answer I got was the other 3 electricians never said I needed the consumer unit upgrading your looking for extra work the other guys are just replacing the sockets.

Does that mean I should refuse the job as I know I will be more expensive because the customer won’t pay for the extra work of installing a new consumer unit

 

[Pete999]

Retype please

 

[Andy78]

The answer I got was the other 3 electricians never said I needed the consumer unit upgrading your looking for extra work the other guys are just replacing the sockets.

Does that mean I should refuse the job as I know I will be more expensive because the customer won’t pay for the extra work of installing a new consumer unit

Are you going to get the work anyhow as you will be more expensive due to your RCD alterations ?

Yes, sometimes it's best to walk, especially when a customer starts to question your professional advice.

 

[Gazthesparky]

Agreed, I’m not saying in this instance it’s going above and beyond what is required but sometimes you can over spec a job because you are striding for perfection. It’s all about trying to gauge the customer

 

[JK-Electrical]

In terms of pricing to do the job properly, I had informed and spoke to the customer regarding upgrading the consumer unit to include RCD protection.

The answer I got was the other 3 electricians never said I needed the consumer unit upgrading your looking for extra work the other guys are just replacing the sockets.

Ah! The old "the other guys never said anything about this so they're all correct and you are wrong" chestnut. It's at this point in the proceedings that I start moving towards the front door in preparation for my exit. I got tired of hearing this line a long time ago.

I recall visiting a potential customer to price-up a consumer unit upgrade. After a quick inspection, I brought it to the homeowner's notice that there was no main bonding present for the gas and water services and informed him that it would need to be done at additional cost prior to the changeover. "None of the other electricians who gave me a price mentioned anything about this bonding stuff, whatever the hell that is." It's difficult to win jobs when you're competing against unprofessional numpties who care only about money.

Does that mean I should refuse the job as I know I will be more expensive because the customer won’t pay for the extra work of installing a new consumer unit

In a nutshell, yes. Definitely. I would certainly shrug my shoulders and walk away if it was me who was standing in your shoes. I really can't be bothered trying to explain the advantages of RCD protection to customers who then accuse you of inventing work for yourself when in actuality you are merely trying to do the job to the best of your ability with their safety in mind. Walk away.

 

[Pete999]

Ah! The old "the other guys never said anything about this so they're all correct and you are wrong" chestnut. It's at this point in the proceedings that I start moving towards the front door in preparation for my exit. I got tired of hearing this line a long time ago.

I recall visiting a potential customer to price-up a consumer unit upgrade. After a quick inspection, I brought it to the homeowner's notice that there was no main bonding present for the gas and water services and informed him that it would need to be done at additional cost prior to the changeover. "None of the other electricians who gave me a price mentioned anything about this bonding stuff, whatever the hell that is." It's difficult to win jobs when you're competing against unprofessional numpties who care only about money.


In a nutshell, yes. Definitely. I would certainly shrug my shoulders and walk away if it was me who was standing in your shoes. I really can't be bothered trying to explain the advantages of RCD protection to customers who then accuse you of inventing work for yourself when in actuality you are merely trying to do the job to the best of your ability with their safety in mind. Walk away.

Probably because I have the time, and don't rely on working any more, but an idea, not just for you JK, but all potential CU changes.
It appears to me that most homeowners just don't know the rules and regulations, regarding changing CU.
Now me in my infinite wisdom wondered if it might not be a good idea, that when quoting for a CU change, you include in your package a copy of the Electrical Safety council's Best Practice Guide for CU changes and in your letter / quotation advise the client to read and inwardly digest. Just a thought. It's what I what I would do if I was still working, may save all the accusations of probing for extra work, what do you think? a good idea, or am I talking out of my backside?

 

[JK-Electrical]

Probably because I have the time, and don't rely on working any more, but an idea, not just for you JK, but all potential CU changes.
It appears to me that most homeowners just don't know the rules and regulations, regarding changing CU.
Now me in my infinite wisdom wondered if it might not be a good idea, that when quoting for a CU change, you include in your package a copy of the Electrical Safety council's Best Practice Guide for CU changes and in your letter / quotation advise the client to read and inwardly digest. Just a thought. It's what I what I would do if I was still working, may save all the accusations of probing for extra work, what do you think? a good idea, or am I talking out of my backside?

That's sage advice, Pete. I already do what you have advised vis a vis Best Practice Guide 1. I also draw the customer's attention to the requirements of regulation 132.16. Unfortunately, it rarely makes any difference though because usually all the customer is ultimately concerned about is £££. Sad but true.

 

[Pete999]

That's sage advice, Pete. I already do what you have advised vis a vis Best Practice Guide 1. I also draw the customer's attention to the requirements of regulation 132.16. Unfortunately, it rarely makes any difference though because usually all the customer is ultimately concerned about is £££. Sad but true.

Yes I thought that may be the case JK it's a sad reflection on how the public view electrical safety, until, God forbid someone gets fried, any safety come to that, the pound rules the day Mate.

 

[Toneyz]

Fit an upfront RCD to cover all circuits: BAD DESIGN, AGAINST REGS AND COULD TRIP OUT DUE TO CUMULATIVE/FAULTS ON OTHER CIRCUITS
Fit RCD 13Amp socket outlets: MORE EXPENSIVE, COULD NEED DEEPER BOXES & MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE IN CHOSEN DESIGN OF PLATE.
Don't forget to check the Bonding is up to scratch.AGREE.
In my opinion having an MCB and an RCBO in what will be in series, is not a good idea.

THINK MEAN RCD.

 

[snowhead]

vis a vis Best Practice Guide 1.

As a Consumer I'd have lost interest in that leaflet at page 4, and there's another 12 pages to go?

 

[Pete999]

As a Consumer I'd have lost interest in that leaflet at page 4, and there's another 12 pages to go?

Might be a good idea to read the whole document in your case then Mate, as a Consumer / maintainer.

 

[Toneyz]

Did GET rcbos actually exist in the first place?

Yes according to my old 2004 catalogue but were two module but they could have been available after that in one module as we have as standard today not sure what consumer unit fitted by GET.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Personally if Proteus RCBO's fit properly then that's what I'd fit. Been in this situation plenty of times and as long as a different make fits properly it's never going to be a problem regardless of manufacturers instructions, because standard RCBO's are manufactured to the same specs regardless of make.
I really cant see why other options are being discussed.The idea of adding an up front RCD is quite frankly daft.

 

[Toneyz]

Probably because I have the time, and don't rely on working any more, but an idea, not just for you JK, but all potential CU changes.
It appears to me that most homeowners just don't know the rules and regulations, regarding changing CU.
Now me in my infinite wisdom wondered if it might not be a good idea, that when quoting for a CU change, you include in your package a copy of the Electrical Safety council's Best Practice Guide for CU changes and in your letter / quotation advise the client to read and inwardly digest. Just a thought. It's what I what I would do if I was still working, may save all the accusations of probing for extra work, what do you think? a good idea, or am I talking out of my backside?

No and they are F.O.C.