Live incomer is earth cable wrapped in brown tape?

[Mindgirl]

Hi

I wonder if anyone has any useful thoughts on this. Client wants me to redo consumer unit but doesn’t want disruption to fabric of building. I’ve attached pic - looks like original wiring was a 16mm earth to the live incomer .

The meter box is >20m away.
I guess cable is cable but 16mm would be undersized in a modern installation
I don’t understand why it was done like this since the house was built 2011 from ground up, so no retrofitting.
This is one of two consumer units, both of which have Knx units in same unit (which they shouldn’t) , and will be migrating them to a different system that will work better for the client.
The latter is relevant as it appears the KNX install was done by someone who had no idea, nor the software to programme it all, so none of it works as it should, but is now

 

[littlespark]

You sure the neutral isn’t blue tape over earth as well?

Badly crimped earth wire in the back and some phone wire?

16mm is fine IF it’s fused appropriately.
At 20m to meter, are these single tails? Protected in conduit or anything?

 

[Mindgirl]

Thanks for prompt response

Neutral probably the same yes but can’t confirm yet
There’s a lot of other dodgy and messy wiring in there, but the rest would reasonably easy to resolve in the consumer unit

Im going back to property today to look at a bit more, as I wrongly assumed there would be no problem to the unit!
But if they are earth cables that have been taped, then that would mean they are single insulated, so would need to be in conduit or something.
Have no idea how I would run new meter tails if they don’t want any disruption to building fabric!

 

[Rockingit]

What is exiting the incomer meter/isolator/ (kmf?) Clearly, if you’ve proper tails one end and then this at the other then somewhere there’s a join - which personally I’d be more concerned over than the issue of non-compliance (lack of sheath) or questions about sizing.

I’m going to go on a limb of a guess of the back story, here…. There’s a KMF after the meter and proper tails won’t fit the termination, ‘electrician’ then realised that 16mm single wasn’t on the shelf at the wholesaler in anything other than G/Y unless they got a 100m drum in of each colour, special order.

 

[Mindgirl]

What is exiting the incomer meter/isolator/ (kmf?) Clearly, if you’ve proper tails one end and then this at the other then somewhere there’s a join - which personally I’d be more concerned over than the issue of non-compliance (lack of sheath) or questions about sizing.

I’m going to go on a limb of a guess of the back story, here…. There’s a KMF after the meter and proper tails won’t fit the termination, ‘electrician’ then realised that 16mm single wasn’t on the shelf at the wholesaler in anything other than G/Y unless they got a 100m drum in of each colour, special order.

Yes, I’m guessing same, but will give update when get chance to go to property - which I won’t now until Monday as client not available until then

 

[Julie.]

Thanks for prompt response

Neutral probably the same yes but can’t confirm yet
There’s a lot of other dodgy and messy wiring in there, but the rest would reasonably easy to resolve in the consumer unit

Im going back to property today to look at a bit more, as I wrongly assumed there would be no problem to the unit!
But if they are earth cables that have been taped, then that would mean they are single insulated, so would need to be in conduit or something.
Have no idea how I would run new meter tails if they don’t want any disruption to building fabric!

As said above probably the only cable they had was std g/y 6491x .

Which would be unsuitable, firstly because it is single insulated, (unless it's run in conduit or trunking over it's whole length); but also because it is prohibited to oversleave g/y as any other conductor.

 

[Rockingit]

As said above probably the only cable they had was std g/y 6491x .

Which would be unsuitable, firstly because it is single insulated, (unless it's run in conduit or trunking over it's whole length); but also because it is prohibited to oversleave g/y as any other conductor.

I was holding back from the G/Y ident issue until I’d dug out my 16th ed and double checked what we were allowed to do back in 2010! I’ve a sneaky feeling I remember the whole G/Y exclusivity was 17:1??

 

[James]

I am sure I remember not repurposing green yellow going back to the 16th.

 

[Julie.]

Tbh, I was always taught never to over sleave g/y right back from the late '70s (not that we over sleeved much then anyway)

As you say I don't know when it became "official" but I expected it to be way back tbh.

 

[Julie.]

OK made me check, but the red book of 2008 has reg 514.4.2 indicating g/y must only be used exclusively for cpc/earth bonding etc

It was also in regulations B54 and B57 of the 14th edition - although B57 was for all flexible conductors.

Although the earth could be solid green up to 1977 of course.

It also wasn't as specific back then, the regs were more "you understood and applied their meaning " rather then today where they have to spell things out somewhat more.

 

[Mindgirl]

Any practical solutions that don’t involve cutting new holes to run a new cable ?

 

[Rockingit]

Any practical solutions that don’t involve cutting new holes to run a new cable ?

Without actually seeing it ‘for real’ it’s hard to say but I’ve a suspicion that you may be on a loser with this one. Even if hypothetically each cable was totally unsupported/fixed and could be used as a draw for a replacement, the replacement will be physically larger so I’d wager a reasonable round of drinks that you’d never get the new through the old holes.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

If I understand correctly, these existing runs of 6491X are not in conduit or trunking, so the colour and size are immaterial, they are not suitable. Any replacement is going to be sheathed and therefore larger. Is there in fact a switchfuse at the origin protecting them? You describe them as meter tails (i.e. not a protected distribution circuit) but they are over 20m long.

If they were in conduit, and protected against overcurrent by a switchfuse at the intake, then we are back to the questions of size and colour. Does the situation satisfy Ib<In<Iz? And, are the cables taped in the correct colours over their entire length? Because 514.4.2 refers to a conductor coloured G/Y throughout its length, which is not permitted to be oversleeved at the terminations. But a cable completely covered in brown tape isn't a cable coloured G/Y throughout its length, it's a brown cable, and it's not oversleeved at its terminations. But then again, is that colour coding durable enough - the tape might start peeling off - as it's not part of the official make-up of the cable to the BS. The regs don't actually define this situation, IMO. I wouldn't accept it,

 

[westward10]

By the time you wrap 20m, maybe 40m if the blue is the same you may as well drive 100 miles to get the correct materials

 

[Dustydazzler]

Wrapping GY in tape is rough as old badgers

Like plumbers who use wrap the cpc in twin&earth with red tape and use it as a Live

All rough house

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Of course it's rough and I wouldn't tolerate it, but I don't think that's a fair comparison. G/Y 6491X is insulated to the same standard as brown, it's just the colour that's wrong which arguably could be fixed by 'changing' the colour. The CPC in T&E is not insulated and must not be used as a live conductor. My concern is that the tape, as a colour code, is not durable enough and could detach leaving the incorrect colour exposed, and there might be confusion if it were deliberately stripped separately from the original insulation.

 

[Rockingit]

Of course it's rough and I wouldn't tolerate it, but I don't think that's a fair comparison. G/Y 6491X is insulated to the same standard as brown, it's just the colour that's wrong which arguably could be fixed by 'changing' the colour. The CPC in T&E is not insulated and must not be used as a live conductor. My concern is that the tape, as a colour code, is not durable enough and could detach leaving the incorrect colour exposed, and there might be confusion if it were deliberately stripped separately from the original insulation.

I've wondered this, before now. When is a colour not a colour, etc. I've done it the other way around before, on an external gas bond where 20-30m of GY would have looked awful, so instead used brown which blended in and oversleeved G/Y at each end - NICEIC technical had no issues with it as I thought I should double check first (although I fully expect it confused the next gas fitter!)

 

[suffolkspark]

Have no idea how I would run new meter tails if they don’t want any disruption to building fabric!

Remember were not magicians. If it really is singles all the way not in containment it needs renewing, however that may be.

 

[Julie.]

Any practical solutions that don’t involve cutting new holes to run a new cable ?

I doubt it.

If it is coming through plasterboard walls, and under the floor; it might just be possible to pull an armoured through as three seperate cables twisted around (as they tend to be) does take up more space than a single piece.

But it only needs to be fixed or somehow jammed once along its length and then you're stuffed!

Is there a different route possible?

 

[pc1966]

I've wondered this, before now. When is a colour not a colour, etc. I've done it the other way around before, on an external gas bond where 20-30m of GY would have looked awful, so instead used brown which blended in and oversleeved G/Y at each end - NICEIC technical had no issues with it as I thought I should double check first (although I fully expect it confused the next gas fitter!)

I'm pretty sure that is fine.

The real issue with repurposing a G/Y cable is that someone thinks it is intrinsically safe at some point along the length, or it gets accidentally swapped, and so cut or attached to metalwork making for a serious risk of injury or death.

 

[Mindgirl]

I guess a proper discussion with client is due. Of note, the reason why I didn’t look as thoroughly as I should have first time is that there was full electrical NICEIC branded installation certificate posted up next to board downstairs . Will need to check when that was signed off and if they were actually on NICEIC register at time of signing

 

[mart spark]

I could be wrong as i haven't got the regs to hand but i believe in 17th you could oversleeve green and yellow cpc of flex only as long as it was done at both ends but, that the rule changed in the 18th. I'm open to corection as I'm going by memory.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Imo G/Y should not be used as anything else other than Earth / Cpc

G/y is the Univeral colour in the Uk for Earth and should remain as such

I

 

[Lucien Nunes]

My point was; is a cable consisting of green/yellow insulation completely wrapped in brown tape throughout its length, a green/yellow cable or a brown one?
How about if it's in brown sleeving throughout its length?
Or a cable with most of the insulation thickness one colour covered with a skin of another colour, e.g. a 2-core mains flex with two blue cores one of which has a brown skin?

 

[Julie.]

My point was; is a cable consisting of green/yellow insulation completely wrapped in brown tape throughout its length, a green/yellow cable or a brown one?

I would say g/y because the wrap could be removed intentionally or unintentionally.

How about if it's in brown sleeving throughout its length?

I would say g/y because the sleeve could be removed

Or a cable with most of the insulation thickness one colour covered with a skin of another colour, e.g. a 2-core mains flex with two blue cores one of which has a brown skin?

I would say brown because the skin cannot be removed whilst leaving the underlying insulation (unless one went to ridiculous effort)

In my opinion if the insulation is g/y by manufacture then it should never be over sleeved - it should only ever be used for earthing/cpc.

I realise that the regs do permit the g/y in flex to be over sleeved - personally I think this should not be permitted - bring back regulation B57 of the 14th edition I say!

 

[baldelectrician]

I would advise caution
The client is telling you what the job scope is- it is your job to let them know what needs to be done to make things safe and then they can decide what to do

When you go back take pictures and notes and then let them know you will send an estimate later on

You should send them something in writing if you have concens then if the house burns down you have covered your a$$.
Sometimes it is better to walk away from a client who will not take your advice and leave the problem install to someone else

 

[loz2754]

I realise that the regs do permit the g/y in flex to be over sleeved

Not any more they don't. 514.4.2

 

[Julie.]

Not any more they don't. 514.4.2

Yup I was being a bimbo, my campaign for bringing back reg b57 was successful!

I should have said had been permitted at one time - in fact the niceic used to promote its use in the snags and solutions back around the red book in ~2008

Yes - all removed now

Guess it's lucky I am retiring now then!