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Evening All,

I have been asked to test a newly built smart home. This place has the works! Everything from the heating, lighting, alarms, music etc is controlled (by Loxone). I feel a bit overwhelmed about this and was wondering if anyone had any experience doing this? I believe the lights are 24vdc and I am really scared about breaking something expensive.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

RJ
 
Evening All,

I have been asked to test a newly built smart home. This place has the works! Everything from the heating, lighting, alarms, music etc is controlled (by Loxone). I feel a bit overwhelmed about this and was wondering if anyone had any experience doing this? I believe the lights are 24vdc and I am really scared about breaking something expensive.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

RJ

Turn it down unless you fully understand what you are testing.
also, if its new build surely it comes with certification and wont need testing for some time?
 
Turn it down unless you fully understand what you are testing.
also, if its new build surely it comes with certification and wont need testing for some time?
The build has just been completed and they need it certified for mortgage reasons or something.
I am not comfortable working alongside smarthome stuff. I will never learn or be comfortable unless i ask questions and try to be better.
 
The build has just been completed and they need it certified for mortgage reasons or something.
I am not comfortable working alongside smarthome stuff. I will never learn or be comfortable unless i ask questions and try to be better.
I know where your coming from but surely the people who installed it should have been part p etc and supplying the cert.
I’m not doubting your abilities but if I didn’t understand it I would not consider myself competent to test it
Ps are you insured against wrecking a 3k home server if you accidentally blow I by it testing th wrong cable? Not so much a question but food for thought
 
I’m just in the final stages of commissioning a full smart home installation..
I tested all the wiring in stages as each area was completed and before I connected up any of the devices..
The control panels I built had a separate expansion chamber at the top, with rows of top job wagos installed, to which all the installation wiring terminated into.
I am providing a set of manuals which will give full details on testing procedures, etc.
What size is the house?
How many circuits?
Do you have any pictures of the control panels?
 
I find the post interesting, I have tested things like batching plants, and one of the main things was to ensure all safety devices worked. In the main it required two people, and the biggest job was to write the test procedure.

The problem with so called Smart devices is to be sure it will not do some thing which is either a danger to personal or equipment.

Even with my simple central heating, I have questioned the use of electronic TRV heads, unlike the old wax type, they can turn off the water flow completely with ease, where the wax type were unlikely in normal use to ever completely turn off the water supply.

As a result there needs to be a by-pass valve, the problem is this is combining pipe fitting and electrics and one has to decide who needs to test what.

So if an automatic curtain closer could cut a child's fingers, who needs to highlight the fault? Seem to remember BS7671 has a motor size (0.37 kW) below which it is permitted to auto start, but we have seen with access gates how children can so easy be injured.

Table 42.1 in the old BS7671:2008 gives temperatures, it gives the maximum temperature of a metallic part intended to be touched but not hand-held as 70°C of anything electrically controlled, i.e. a radiator, however traditionally this is down to the plumber, however technically as electricians I suppose it is down to us to check.

The same problem with inspection and testing of any in-service electrical equipment, but should the electrical installation condition report, include the inspection and testing of any in-service electrical equipment?

Both in commercial premises need testing, but in a domestic situation is the cooker, washing machine etc tested under the EICR? so if they are not tested, then should other in-service equipment be tested?

So if a smart socket is fitted, is this tested as part of the EICR or by person doing PAT testing? We would clearly say part of the EICR, but at what point does the item change from being an installation to being an appliance? The cooker hood is an appliance. What is the central heating?

So no answer, just questions, which really do need answers.
 
If done right then failsafes are put in place to prevent any issues.

TRV heads
“As a result there needs to be a by-pass valve”
Why is that then?
 
Bypass requirement isn't changed by electronic TRV heads - wax heads can reduce flow rate so that a bypass is required.
Reason for bypass ? When TRVs throttle rads down there two issues.
First is having a fixed pump which will be pumping at higher pressure against the extra resistance. This results in a noisy system and in extreme can danage the pump. It can be simply solved by using a modulating pump like the Grundfoss Alpha range.
Second issue is that AFAIK there is not a single boiler on the market suitable for a modern system :mad: Resd the manual for any boiler and thay are all designed for fixed/minimum flow rates - and generally higher flow rates than most rad systems need anyway. So you need to keep the fixed pump, and install a bypass valve that will return hot water back to the boiler - usually stopping it condensing most of the time. An utterly terrible state of affairs with the boiler manufacturers (and government) seemingly oblivious to the stupidity of it all :rolleyes:
It could be very simply solved with very minor changes to boiler plumbing - increasing efficiency and performance in one go. But then I suspect most "plumbers" wouldn't be able to understand it :imp:
Moi disparaging of plumbers and boiler manufacturers based on my observations :p
 
I think we have to ask our selves what are we employed to do? If asked to look at the installation then we should not be looking at appliances, and a hand drier or immersion heater is an appliance.

The question arises what is the demarcation line.

I do see the point that be it wax or electronic the TRV can turn off the coolant, not a good example, but the question is, can the item either cause damage to person or equipment.

Maybe better example is a thermoplastic header tank. We all know about the baby death. But with a thermosetting header tank it would not have failed, why thermoplastic type is allowed I don't know?

However with a solid fuel water heater we have to use thermosetting or metallic header tank, and the over temperature device for the immersion heater needs to be the re-settable type, even without solid fuel the tank can go over temperature due to non electric heating so we want to be able to re-set the over temperature cut out. But with electric only water heating we want a non re-settable type, so if the thermostat becomes faulty, the whole thing needs renewing.

But nothing in my training to get my C&G2391 told me about reason or type of cut out fitted to an immersion heater thermostat, and why should they, this is an appliance, not part of the installation.

However C&G2377 Pat testing or inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment to give full title, also did not tell me about matching the thermostat to the material used to make the header tank.

The same applies to a bench grinder over 370 watt, we know as tradesmen it needs a cut out so if there is a power failure it will not auto restart, but neither of the two, well three as there are two exams for PAT testing, told me to fail a grind wheel if it did not fail safe.

These points have been valid for many years, but today with "Smart" devices we have more items which need special knowledge of some type.

So if you have a 13A socket which can be remotely energised is this permitted? Well over 370 watt, I would say no, it does not comply, light switch rated 250 watt, so that does comply.

I know my wife's car has a warning that you should not remotely start it using your phone if it is on a public road, but in our drive she can start the car and let it warm up, so toasty warm when she gets in it, the gear selector knob does not rise when started with phone so no one can steel it, but as to if safe that's another question.

I am sure Jaguar has considered the safety aspect, but what about pofung or any other Chinese or other import? does it comply with British safety standards? Not a clue if there is some thing called pofung. But is it part of our remit to look for Chinese Export symbols i.e. CE marked?

I think it is time we just do our job, and not the jobs of allied trades, if we are doing an EICR the I stands for installation and that's all we should do, and we should state only the installation has been tested, and all electrical appliances be it fixed or portable are outside the remit and will not be tested as part of the EICR.
 
Good roundup there.
But back to the original question, I think things are only going to get more "interesting" :rolleyes:
For so long, we had a few RCDs (and other bits and pieces, but mostly RCDs) where the instructions were to disconnect them and do IR testing at 500V. With maybe one or two RCDs in a split board that's not too difficult to do - but a board full of RCBOs ? Now the model forms have a place to mark voltage used, and 250V is specifically allowed where 500V might damage equipment. Before this change, I was of the opinion that disconnecting to test at 500V was "not always a good idea" - think of the amount of disturbance in a CU when it's all RCBOs. In my rental flat, during periodic testing I found a high resistance neutral in the RFC - which I eventually tracked down to the connections in the RCBO. I'd specifically done testing at a socket as the RCBOs I used are not very easy to work with while the socket allows easy visual inspection of the connections when putting it back together. Had I done testing from the CU, I wouldn't have found the found, and it's quite possible I could have put it back together with the same (or another) fault. But as long as I use the old "press and hold the button, watch the needle" IR tester, I can test the IR of the whole installation in one go as long as I use 250V and one polarity (the RCBOs have a resistance to earth in the other polarity) - if the whole installation comes up with a reasonable IR, then every circuit in it must be OK on it's own.

For a household of "smart" stuff, as Brucie used to say, good game, good game o_O I think you'd struggle to actually test anything other than the mains voltage stuff - and again this would probably have to be at 250V to avoid having to dismantle the whole installation. Then you have the problem of testing circuits that are switched by the smart stuff - so you can't test (eg) a light circuit all the way to the rose/pendant just by flicking the switch on the wall, and it might not be possible to switch it on via the "smart" gubbins while leaving it powered down for IR and Zs tests.
As for the ELV stuff, other than perhaps IR testing Class II devices to ensure that the ELV side is actually isolated from the supply, I see little you can actually do with them.

A little topical for me as I've recently been thinking of more work for myself at home - as if SWMBO doesn't complain enough about the jobs I haven't got done and those I haven't finished :mad:
I bought some scaffolding for doing those "stuff I don't like doing off ladders" jobs. Put it up to sort out the light on the back gable, and ended up using some conduit to change from one very high up PIR/floodlight to a PIR and two LED floodlights mounted less high up. Then I get to moving round the side to sort out the guttering, and remember that the light round there doesn't work. Then I start thinking that if I pick up a feed from the cable that feeds that, I can change the switch in the living room to override PIR on the back instead of switching the feed. And then while I'm doing that, realise that if I use a tee box instead of a bend, I can drill through the wall and end up in the boiler cupboard which opens up all sorts of possibilities. So now I;ve gone from "fix the light" to a conduit run across the gable, round the side, along under the eaves, and into the boiler cupboard - with tee boxes for the two PIRs and three lights :rolleyes:
Then I started thinking about more fancy lighting and whiel browsing for RGBW lights, came across a manufacturer offering what they call "series" lighting which is basically the RGBW LED mitter with no drivers. So now I'm thinking that at a future time, I'll pull out the 240V wiring, pull in some ELV wiring (remember, got all the conduit in place now), rip some fittings apart and replace the innards with some bare LumiLED RGBW emitters - and I can fit DALI controlled 350mA or 700mA drivers in the boiler cupboard and have mood lighting in the garden :cool:
Bet SWMBO won't be impressed though - that's the major limitation for stuff I do, the WAF which isn't always positive :(
 
I no longer work, but seem to remember BS requires items will not be damaged with 500 volt IR testing, so if damaged it is likely sub-standard anyway, but no real harm using 250 volt, but you have to remember 230 volt RMS is around 325 volt peak so really 250 volt is not high enough. 500 volt is only 140 volt more than standard peak voltage for 254 volt RMS. And not testing line to neutral so in real terms only the capacitors on supply filters likely to be damaged.

The best practice guide tells us to fail having too many extensions hanging off a socket, but as long as we affix a sticker, and Class II used we can allow no earth on lights. But the earth rule was changed in 1966, at one time we could use knife switches, so just because years ago we could do it, does not really mean OK today, and BS7671 has never allowed lights without earths, it was not BS7671 until 1992 so was never permitted on a previous edition.

But at the end of the day, aim is should it all go wrong, you can point to some one else to blame.

On the negotiations to buy this house, I was provided with an electrical installation certificate which showed half the circuits through a RCD and all circuits MCB protected, the reading were slightly suspect where PFC and loop impedance didn't seem to follow ohms law, but it was a reasonable document. On taking possession I wanted to do some electrical work, and found turning off main isolator had no effect what so ever on the electrical supply to house. On inspection found an old Wilex fuse box hidden in the ceiling.

The central heating was supplied from three separate FCU's and two separate distribution boxes one a fuse box, the other a consumer unit, the programmer although it said CH and DHW in fact was a simple time switch to boiler supply, and switching between CH and DHW and DHW only had no effect. The central heating pump for main house was simply on a 13A plug. There was a thermostat for the flat below main house, and there was a RF receiver for a wireless thermostat, but no actual wireless thermostat connected to it.

I came to trace wires, from where one would expect the main house thermostat to location of time switch found 3 core and earth red, yellow, blue, from the time switch also 3 core and earth red, yellow, blue, but in flat the three core and earth was brown, black, grey and there was only continuity in two of the three wires.

The floor under the cistern was bowed to the extent wondered if cistern would arrive on ground floor over night, and the floor in other areas was also damaged, and under the shower it needed the main beam renewing. But house buyers report did pick up minor leak on flashing around chimney, plus signs of water around patio door, but missed the rest.

As to any claim not sure, but I suspect not, and this is the problem, in the main, the house buyer report, or EICR, or energy rating, is just some ones opinion and unless some one is killed, unlikely to end up as a court case.

So why do we bother?
 

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