Earth and bonding cable checks-any tools available?

[Plonker 3]

that beats my "width underwater" swimming certificate.

I thought you would have had the one where you do that in your pyjamas.

 

[Tof99]

What do they learn on this course?

Who has decided they need to ensure bonding is the correct size and in place?

Diilb, their training is very comprehensive, but limited too.
We were challanged by NICEIC on not checking reg 132.16, my argument was we are not altering the installation, just connecting to it (after checking load etc) But NICEIC want us to just confirm presence of earthing conductors and main earthing conductors and confirm sizing is correct.

 

[Silly Sausage]

City and Guilds 2359 Level 2 qualification in Installing Consumer Electrical Equipment, full CCN1 and CKR1 Gas safe quals and internal training covering off electrical testing.

2359 is Servicing Equipment. No Electrical Installation training/quals then?
http://cdn.cityandguilds.com/Produc...ments/2359_L2_3_Qualification_handbook_v1.pdf

The guys are competent in their field, but are not electricians.

What, plugging things in :smilielol5:

 

[Andy78]

Diilb, their training is very comprehensive, but limited too.
We were challanged by NICEIC on not checking reg 132.16, my argument was we are not altering the installation, just connecting to it (after checking load etc) But NICEIC want us to just confirm presence of earthing conductors and main earthing conductors and confirm sizing is correct.

Then you have three choices:

• Train your staff properly to do their job in line with the requests
• Perform on site pre-job assessments yourself or by similarly trained individual in line with requests
• Tell the NICEIC that your work does not fall within the remit of their requests and to go forth and pester someone else.

 

[Tof99]

2359 is Servicing Equipment. No Electrical Installation training/quals then?
http://cdn.cityandguilds.com/Produc...ments/2359_L2_3_Qualification_handbook_v1.pdf





What, plugging things in :smilielol5:

Archy: The electrical training is done outside of that C&G exam, partly withing the Gas safe and then a 3 day internal course (approved by awarding bodies)

 

[Pete999]

Diilb, their training is very comprehensive, but limited too.
We were challanged by NICEIC on not checking reg 132.16, my argument was we are not altering the installation, just connecting to it (after checking load etc) But NICEIC want us to just confirm presence of earthing conductors and main earthing conductors and confirm sizing is correct.

Are you, or is your company part of a Competent Persons Scheme (NICEIC being one of them)

 

[Tof99]

Are you, or is your company part of a Competent Persons Scheme (NICEIC being one of them)

It's a large company, but we have some sites that are under NICEIC Limited scope (Level B, minor works) but the majority aren't.

 

[Pete999]

It's a large company, but we have some sites that are under NICEIC Limited scope (Level B, minor works) but the majority aren't.

Then what business is it of NICEIC to tell you what to do?

 

[Tof99]

Then what business is it of NICEIC to tell you what to do?

Fair comment Pete!

It's because in the longer term we are looking at full scope for the whole business, so we need to be seen to be doing things correctly.

IMO, I don't feel we need to be doing any more than just a visual check that the incoming services are bonded, after all we are just installing appliances and do perform an EFLI test which will prove there is a 'decent' earth path. But their Area Engineer suggested we should be doing full 132.16 checks.

 

[telectrix]

I thought you would have had the one where you do that in your pyjamas.

got that as well. fetching a brick from the bottom.

 

[Pete999]

Fair comment Pete!

It's because in the longer term we are looking at full scope for the whole business, so we need to be seen to be doing things correctly.

IMO, I don't feel we need to be doing any more than just a visual check that the incoming services are bonded, after all we are just installing appliances and do perform an EFLI test which will prove there is a 'decent' earth path. But their Area Engineer suggested we should be doing full 132.16 checks.

You don't have to be registered to NICEIC there are other equally as bad

 

[trev]

Cooker installer my arse, another so called trade who will soon, no doubt, be adopting the "engineer" title to justify their existence.
Glorified Argos monkeys imo.

 

[Pete999]

Cooker installer my arse, another so called trade who will soon, no doubt, be adopting the "engineer" title to justify their existence.
Glorified Argos monkeys imo.

Hi Trev how you doin? back saying like it is I'm pleased to say

 

[Deleted member 72666]

Archy: The electrical training is done outside of that C&G exam, partly withing the Gas safe and then a 3 day internal course (approved by awarding bodies)

Now that makes a Electrical Trainee look like they've completed a full apprenticeship!

 

[davesparks]

Not really the response I was looking for! I thought this forum was to help each other? (see forum's statement below)

(Please be reminded that if your reply can't help the original poster, it may be seen as pointless and taking the thread off topic. Please make sure what you are about to post is in-keeping with the forum rules, specifically the "be nice" rule. Just be nice and helpful (even to new members) or don't reply at all please. Also note that we urge all members, regular or new, to report any posts that are off-topic, pointless or offensive)

Just to re-clarify:

I have a team of cooker installers who need to confirm earth & bonding sizes, I have the skills to do so, but I am in an office, I cannot expect a cooker installer to know how to, hence the question.

First you need to teach them how to calculate the correct size of earthing conductor required, and then the correct size of bonding conductor required. You also need to teach them how to identify and test each of the different earthing systems. And of course how to test whether or not a metal pipe requires bonding or not.
They will also need calibrated loop impedance testers to test the Ze, as it would be pointless confirming the size of the earthing conductor is the supplied earth connection is not up to scratch.

 

[Geordie Spark]

imagine been at school and telling the careers teacher you want to become a cooker installer:dunce2:

I used to tell my teachers that I wanted to be an Engine Driver. :laugh:

 

[Geordie Spark]

Anyone know the C&Gs number for Cooker installing? Electric of course, for Gas you would need a gas safe cert Shirley

Yep ........ >>>>>>> Cookers (CKR1)

 

[cprfenom]

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


You see that ugly thing there? Thats my bothered face

I always thought that was your smug face :49:

 

[Tof99]

First you need to teach them how to calculate the correct size of earthing conductor required, and then the correct size of bonding conductor required. You also need to teach them how to identify and test each of the different earthing systems. And of course how to test whether or not a metal pipe requires bonding or not.
They will also need calibrated loop impedance testers to test the Ze, as it would be pointless confirming the size of the earthing conductor is the supplied earth connection is not up to scratch.

Thanks for that Dave.

They can all ID supply types. They all have calibrated MFTs and test Zs from the point of installation.
I have explained how to tell whether a service pipe is an Extraneous conductive part, but to expect them to calculate earthing conductor is, IMO, too much, I know sparks who struggle with that!

As per my original post, all NICEIC expect us to do is check for the present of an earth conductor and main bonding and confirm it isn't undersized etc.
So my original question was how do you guys check the existing cable size, do you use a cable gauge etc or just experience?

Thanks for you help mate.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Thanks for that Dave.

They can all ID supply types. They all have calibrated MFTs and test Zs from the point of installation.
I have explained how to tell whether a service pipe is an Extraneous conductive part, but to expect them to calculate earthing conductor is, IMO, too much, I know sparks who struggle with that!

As per my original post, all NICEIC expect us to do is check for the present of an earth conductor and main bonding and confirm it isn't undersized etc.
So my original question was how do you guys check the existing cable size, do you use a cable gauge etc or just experience?

Thanks for you help mate.

Just experience mate, it's not really difficult to see the difference between 6mm,10mm,16mm, etc

 

[Tof99]

Just experience mate, it's not really difficult to see the difference between 6mm,10mm,16mm, etc

That's what I thought Lee.

I just worry they would misidentify 6mm and 100mm etc. and wanted to g'tee they did it correctly until they gained experience.


Thanks mate.

 

[Leesparkykent]

That's what I thought Lee.

I just worry they would misidentify 6mm and 100mm etc. and wanted to g'tee they did it correctly until they gained experience.


Thanks mate.

blimey I wouldn't let him on my driveway let alone in my house if he couldn't see the difference between those size conductors!

 

[Engineer54]

Are these the same appliance installation/repair operatives that try and walk away from an installation where an appliance's plug top has been removed and the cable connected to FCU, then turn round and try and convince the customer the appliance warranty is now void??

 

[Geordie Spark]

That's what I thought Lee.

I just worry they would misidentify 6mm and 100mm etc. and wanted to g'tee they did it correctly until they gained experience.


Thanks mate.

I can quite honestly say that after reading that my flabber has never been so ghasted!!! :nonod:

Why not try doing it right; get rid of the chimps, start paying the proper rate and employ some properly trained and qualified sparks???


EDIT: Hang one a minute ... Today is April 1st isn't it???

Nice one Toffy Bonny Lad .. you got me!! :49:

 

[Plonker 3]

Thanks for that Dave.

They can all ID supply types. They all have calibrated MFTs and test Zs from the point of installation.
I have explained how to tell whether a service pipe is an Extraneous conductive part, but to expect them to calculate earthing conductoris, IMO, too much, I know sparks who struggle with that!

As per my original post, all NICEIC expect us to do is check for the present of an earth conductor and main bonding and confirm it isn't undersized etc.
So my original question was how do you guys check the existing cable size, do you use a cable gauge etc or just experience?

Thanks for you help mate.

So how do you expect your guys to do both of these then?

 

[Des 56]

Leaving aside all issues regarding competence or anything to do with the job and who is carrying it out

If I wanted some earth cable picked up whilst on a job and my dear wife happened to be passing

I would cut a piece of the size of earth cable I wanted and hand it to her
She,being a dear lady, but not at all practically minded,would have no problem getting the size I needed

Now what was the opening question or shall we move on

 

[Silly Sausage]

EDIT: Hang one a minute ... Today is April 1st isn't it???

Nice one Toffy Bonny Lad .. you got me!! :49:

Afraid not, thread started last night! :smilielol5:

 

[Geordie Spark]

Leaving aside all issues regarding competence or anything to do with the job and who is carrying it out

If I wanted some earth cable picked up whilst on a job and my dear wife happened to be passing

I would cut a piece of the size of earth cable I wanted and hand it to her
She,being a dear lady, but not at all practically minded,would have no problem getting the size I needed

Now what was the opening question or shall we move on

If I sent Tidyboiler out with a bit of cable she'd flog it for scrap and put the money into her fund for a new Chanel handbag.

 

[Des 56]

she'd flog it for scrap

Pity for you when she reads that
and there was you in another thread saying how much better you felt

 

[Geordie Spark]

Afraid not, thread started last night! :smilielol5:

Ok ..... Clivvor shyte. :dunce2:

 

[Octopus]

Not really the response I was looking for! I thought this forum was to help each other? (see forum's statement below)

(Please be reminded that if your reply can't help the original poster, it may be seen as pointless and taking the thread off topic. Please make sure what you are about to post is in-keeping with the forum rules, specifically the "be nice" rule. Just be nice and helpful (even to new members) or don't reply at all please. Also note that we urge all members, regular or new, to report any posts that are off-topic, pointless or offensive)

Just to re-clarify:

I have a team of cooker installers who need to confirm earth & bonding sizes, I have the skills to do so, but I am in an office, I cannot expect a cooker installer to know how to, hence the question.

and nobody likes a smart arse occasiona poster

 

[Geordie Spark]

and nobody likes a smart arse occasiona poster

Quite right.

He wants burning with the steak.

 

[trev]

They all have calibrated MFTs and test Zs from the point of installation.

Erm....

 

[davesparks]

Thanks for that Dave.

They can all ID supply types. They all have calibrated MFTs and test Zs from the point of installation.
I have explained how to tell whether a service pipe is an Extraneous conductive part, but to expect them to calculate earthing conductor is, IMO, too much, I know sparks who struggle with that!

As per my original post, all NICEIC expect us to do is check for the present of an earth conductor and main bonding and confirm it isn't undersized etc.
So my original question was how do you guys check the existing cable size, do you use a cable gauge etc or just experience?

Thanks for you help mate.

How are they going to know whether or not it's undersized without calculating what size it should be?

 

[trev]

I'm really confused, first you say that they can't be expected to calculate the correct size of earthing conductor but then you say that they're expected to confirm that conductors aren't undersized.
One or the other matey.

 

[Andy78]

I'd give up lads, it's one of those where only half the story is coming out.

 

[trev]

Aye but which half? It keeps flopping around like a flippy, floppy thing

 

[Andy78]

Aye but which half? It keeps flopping around like a flippy, floppy thing

Well if any fella is showing me the flippy floppy half of anything I'm not usually right keen to see the other half. Unless it's a saveloy to go with me chips.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Aye but which half? It keeps flopping around like a flippy, floppy thing

Gandhi's Flip Flops.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Thanks for that Dave.

They can all ID supply types. They all have calibrated MFTs and test Zs from the point of installation.

Really??

Are you sure you and your fine fellows know what you're doing?? mg_smile:


( Hey Mark Bonny Lad........... Lendis one o' yer Gasps!! for a bit)