RCD protection for circuits in a toilet (not shower/bathroom)

[paulthemagpie]

Hi guys,

ive came across a couple EICRs conducted by other electricians that are unsatisfactory due to lack of RCD protection.

The general use sockets have RCD protection but the circuits they have suggested is lacking RCD protection in the hand dryers, heaters and water heaters within the toilet. They is no bath or shower just the toilet and basin. It is also a commercial installation.

Does this sound right? I always thought this is only the case if they was the shower or bath.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Hi guys,

ive came across a couple EICRs conducted by other electricians that are unsatisfactory due to lack of RCD protection.

The general use sockets have RCD protection but the circuits they have suggested is lacking RCD protection in the hand dryers and heaters within the toilet. They is no bath or shower just the toilet and basin. It is also a commercial installation.

Does this sound right? I always thought this is only the case if they was the shower or bath.

Why don't you have a look through your BYB as this sound suspiciously like your "what would you code this" queries that you keep posting.

 

[paulthemagpie]

Why don't you have a look through your BYB as this sound suspiciously like your "what would you code this" queries that you keep posting.

lee no need to jump down my neck pal and wreck my post. If you not got anything constructive to add then you should not be replying. Im asking as i cant find anything that states RCD protection is required.

 

[Octopus]

lee no need to jump down my neck pal and wreck my post. If you not got anything constructive to add then you should not be replying. Im asking as i cant find anything that states RCD protection is required.

Hum... matey, you seem to be expecting a lot from this forum and are giving very little.......

 

[paulthemagpie]

Hum... matey, you seem to be expecting a lot from this forum and are giving very little.......

yes i can take that on board mate. My prev comments was just because i thought the tone in his reply was out of order.

 

[telectrix]

if these appliances are wired to FCUs and the cables are not buried in the walls < 50mm without other means of protection, there's no requirement for RCD proptection.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I'll get my coat

 

[telectrix]

I'll get my coat 

see you in the pub then?

 

[Octopus]

yes i can take that on board mate. My prev comments was just because i thought the tone in his reply was out of order.

I'm still not convinced that you have the experience to do EICR's

 

[paulthemagpie]

I'm still not convinced that you have the experience to do EICR's

Well i suppose we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Octopus]

Well i suppose we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

I think LOTS of people will agree with me.

 

[paulthemagpie]

Well i suppose we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

i think alot of new people on the forum will agree with me that if you come on new and not part of your "click" then they people on here that like to undermine people because they have alot more experience then others. They people on here that will just post none useful and off topic comments to try make themself look good infront on their peers.

Im just saying

Give a guy a break

 

[Leesparkykent]

i think alot of new people on the forum will agree with me that if you come on new and not part of your "click" then they people on here that like to undermine people because they have alot more experience then others. They people on here that will just post none useful and off topic comments to try make themself look good infront on their peers.

Im just saying

Its the fact the level of questions are very basic, most my 1st year apprentice could give you the answer to. You never update your threads just start another one, never like or thanks anyone's posts for given You the answers you are looking for. Its not about being apart of a "click" as you put it...its about getting the most out of the forum.

Edit: Point proven in this thread...you haven't even acknowledged Tel's post #6.

 

[paulthemagpie]

guys, you push any newbies out and dont let them in. They been posts that i have left and not replied to only due to the way people answer with put downs.

They is a way to say things without being rude. Constructive advice is welcomed, thats what forums are for, but as I say they a way to say things

 

[HandySparks]

Hi guys,

ive came across a couple EICRs conducted by other electricians that are unsatisfactory due to lack of RCD protection.

The general use sockets have RCD protection but the circuits they have suggested is lacking RCD protection in the hand dryers, heaters and water heaters within the toilet. They is no bath or shower just the toilet and basin. It is also a commercial installation.

Does this sound right? I always thought this is only the case if they was the shower or bath.

So, on the EICR, what's the reason given for requiring RCD protection (any reg numbers?) and what code has been allocated?

 

[7029 dave]

i think alot of new people on the forum will agree with me that if you come on new and not part of your "click" then they people on here that like to undermine people because they have alot more experience then others. They people on here that will just post none useful and off topic comments to try make themself look good infront on their peers.

Im just saying

You are wrong,this is a forum for professional Electricians. I have not commented up until now, it seems quite obvious that you do not have the knowledge/ competence to carry out such tasks. If I am wrong will then I apologise, you don't contribute much either, maybe if you did folk might just be more helpful.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The requirements to provide RCD protection for circuits are only to be found within Chapter 7 (special locations) of BS7671.
A circuit which does not supply equipment, or pass through a special location, will not require RCD protection.

Was not aware when I joined this forum, that it was restricted to professional electricians.
There have over the years been a number of queries from non-electricians.

 

[paulthemagpie]

You are wrong,this is a forum for professional Electricians. I have not commented up until now, it seems quite obvious that you do not have the knowledge/ competence to carry out such tasks. If I am wrong will then I apologise, you don't contribute much either, maybe if you did folk might just be more helpful.

then maybe you should apologise Dave.

Yes i understand it a forum were they should be give and take. As i did say earlier i hold me hands up to the fact im taking more than giving. But same time nobody once to give you a chance to get to know people and bond with people on here, they just to quick to jump the gun and put you down.

The reason why i asked this question is I didnt think RCD protection was required but was asking advice of the more experienced guys incase i was missing something and all it has turned into is a bunch of people jumping down my throat. If you didnt want to contribute wouldnt of it just been eaiser all round for you not to reply anything.

It was given a code 3 with lack of adequate RCD protection.

 

[paulthemagpie]

The requirements to provide RCD protection for circuits are only to be found within Chapter 7 (special locations) of BS7671.
A circuit which does not supply equipment, or pass through a special location, will not require RCD protection.

Was not aware when I joined this forum, that it was restricted to professional electricians.
There have over the years been a number of queries from non-electricians.

I think the comments about electrician and non-electricians are totally off topic so not sure why it even was mentioned in the first place because as you point out non electricians use this forum also.

My questions was to make sure I wasnt missing anything. I found it strange that someone had suggested RCD protection was required for these circuits and was thinking maybe the guy that conducted the EiCR had got confused with "special locations" were his recommendations would of been correct. I was just asking the advice with the more experienced people to make sure i was right in my thinking but instead as my previous comments they some people that just want to jump down your throat and put you down because you not part of the "click"

 

[Andy78]

Paul, if you are feeling alienated and victimised on this site I would suggest that it is mostly from your own actions. Why should your conduct on the internet be any different to the physical world ?

Imagine working on a site where you wander into the site hut and introduce yourself, have a chat with the other guys at break times, and get involved in other's chats day after day.

Now imagine the same site where a fella walks into the hut, asks about a coding query, gets peoples' opinions then walks out of the hut without a word and never comes back to say thanks for the advice. After the seventh time of doing this would you not expect others to start questioning his competence and getting annoyed with his lack of manners ? Would it then be reasonable to accuse the hut dwellers of being excluding and elitist ?

Perhaps if you started again with a bit of info for everyone on the site. Your qualification level, experience etc, as your profile is blank, particularly your qualification and experience relating to periodic reporting.

 

[HandySparks]

Hi guys,

ive came across a couple EICRs conducted by other electricians that are unsatisfactory due to lack of RCD protection.

So, on the EICR, what's the reason given for requiring RCD protection (any reg numbers?) and what code has been allocated?

It was given a code 3 with lack of adequate RCD protection.

If it's a code C3, then how does that make the result of the EICR 'Unsatisfactory'? Surely a C3 indicates that improvement is recommended?

 

[Simonslimline]

Maybe you could fill your profile in @Paulthemagpie. That way people can see what level you are at and what qualifications you hold.

 

[telectrix]

paul, sometrimes it's the way you word yourposts.if you had said in your OP " i've seen a EICR where they have made a judgement that i disagree with, does anyone agree with me?" youmight have gotten more positive replies.

 

[paulthemagpie]

paul, sometrimes it's the way you word yourposts.if you had said in your OP " i've seen a EICR where they have made a judgement that i disagree with, does anyone agree with me?" youmight have gotten more positive replies.

yes your correct, i should of worded it in that way.

Sorry yes it a code 3, but they also code 2s on the report which makes it the unsatisfactory.

Look, i have no problem with people criticising me, but the posts that i have no ended up replying to is mainly down to people replying with rude comments. Replying back to rude comments would on either result in an argument which im not here for, or waste a couple hours of time like is has done here today talking off topic.

so yes maybe i should explain myself more. I hold my hands up to that an apologise for it, but at the same time they certain people that should think before making rude comments as it really uphelpfull

 

[Andy78]

yes your correct, i should of worded it in that way.

Sorry yes it a code 3, but they also code 2s on the report which makes it the unsatisfactory.

Look, i have no problem with people criticising me, but the posts that i have no ended up replying to is mainly down to people replying with rude comments. Replying back to rude comments would on either result in an argument which im not here for, or waste a couple hours of time like is has done here today talking off topic.

so yes maybe i should explain myself more. I hold my hands up to that an apologise for it, but at the same time they certain people that should think before making rude comments as it really uphelpfull

In the time it took you to type all the moaning posts about "rude" comments from others, you could have used that time to answer the questions of others in a constructive manner.

 

[paulthemagpie]

In the time it took you to type all the moaning posts about "rude" comments from others, you could have used that time to answer the questions of others in a constructive manner.

I have done inbetween in you check my previous posts.

This is what i mean, why are you so quick to go up against me?

Im trying to hold my hands up were due here so I can hopefully move forward contributing to the forum. Im explaining from my view how some comments people are making are rude so people can start to talk to me on my level instead of trying to talk down to me.

Will i ever be let in on such a level?

 

[Simonslimline]

I have done inbetween in you check my previous posts.

This is what i mean, why are you so quick to go up against me?

Im trying to hold my hands up were due here so I can hopefully move forward contributing to the forum. Im explaining from my view how some comments people are making are rude so people can start to talk to me on my level instead of trying to talk down to me.

Will i ever be let in on such a level?

Hi Paul, any thoughts on post 22?

 

[paulthemagpie]

Hi Paul, any thoughts on post 22?

Yes mate, it something i need to do!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

My opinion has always been: that in order to conduct periodics, experience is required.
Problem with this, is how to obtain experience without first conducting periodics.
It used to be that you obtained experience while working with someone who had experience. Unfortunately, that no longer appears to be an option.
Now it appears the only option is to ask advice from colleagues (if you have any), or to ask on forums.

 

[Andy78]

My opinion has always been: that in order to conduct periodics, experience is required.
Problem with this, is how to obtain experience without first conducting periodics.
It used to be that you obtained experience while working with someone who had experience. Unfortunately, that no longer appears to be an option.
Now it appears the only option is to ask advice from colleagues (if you have any), or to ask on forums.

Experience and guidance under supervision is only no longer an option if you choose to qualify in a particular fashion and route.
Is it suitable and fair to gain experience by carrying out reports for paying customers whilst asking how to do your job on the internet ?

As Harry Callahan would say, a man's got to know his limitations.

 

[Simonslimline]

Experience and guidance under supervision is only no longer an option if you choose to qualify in a particular fashion and route.
Is it suitable and fair to gain experience by carrying out reports for paying customers whilst asking how to do your job on the internet ?

As Harry Callahan would say, a man's got to know his limitations.

Just agree to LIM everything and jobs a goodun then. :biggrin:

 

[Andy78]

Just agree to LIM everything and jobs a goodun then. :biggrin:

You can laugh, but I have seen an EICR where all test results were given a LIM due to the circuits not being marked up. This obviously gave rise to an unsatisfactory report result, but of course the EICR would not even be issued until the customer had agreed to hand over £900 for a CU change and alterations to the cooker circuit.

That's how one NICEIC approved contractor near me works within their limitations.

 

[paulthemagpie]

Just agree to LIM everything and jobs a goodun then. :biggrin:

Is it okay to do that?

this is a joke :sailor: by the way

 

[Plonker 3]

Whats the earthing arrangment? That will help decide if RCD or RCBO protection is required.

 

[Simonslimline]

You can laugh, but I have seen an EICR where all test results were given a LIM due to the circuits not being marked up. This obviously gave rise to an unsatisfactory report result, but of course the EICR would not even be issued until the customer had agreed to hand over £900 for a CU change and alterations to the cooker circuit.

That's how one NICEIC approved contractor near me works within their limitations.

Yes all jokes aside, that is just ridiculous. IMO just because he is NICEIC AC, does not mean hi is not a cowboy.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

No, inspection and testing has never been about becoming qualified, it has always been about being competent.
There are no courses or apprenticeships for becoming an inspector.
Yes there are qualifications, but they do not provide experience or competence.
From what I recall, inspection and testing was a part of the 2360 course.
Unfortunately from my experience most electricians forgot it all as soon as they became qualified.
It wasn't until Part P that they started purchasing test equipment.
Even now on large building sites, the majority of electricians only have a vague understanding about inspecting and testing.

 

[paulthemagpie]

Whats the earthing arrangment? That will help decide if RCD or RCBO protection is required.

its TNCS

 

[Andy78]

No, inspection and testing has never been about becoming qualified, it has always been about being competent.
There are no courses or apprenticeships for becoming an inspector.
Yes there are qualifications, but they do not provide experience or competence.
From what I recall, inspection and testing was a part of the 2360 course.
Unfortunately from my experience most electricians forgot it all as soon as they became qualified.
It wasn't until Part P that they started purchasing test equipment.
Even now on large building sites, the majority of electricians only have a vague understanding about inspecting and testing.

I'm assuming this is a reply to my post #30
I did not mean that qualification was necessary, but that in qualifying in a particular manner namely the recognised route under supervision, experience and guidance would be available to make an electrician experienced and competent in inspection and testing.

You are right about general standards and knowledge surrounding inspection and testing, and I would say especially on large sites. Knowledge and practice can easily lapse when employed under a QS system where there is a distinct difference made between the installer and the inspector and tester.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

My point is: even those electricians who have been lucky enough to have been apprenticed, still have to obtain experience in conducting periodics.
Unfortunately, unless you are employed by a company which conducts inspection and testing, and are then assigned to work alongside an experienced inspector. There is no other way to gain experience other than gaining it by yourself.
Being competent is another matter.

 

[GMES]

Paul first things first, if you continue to complain and keep fuelling the fire it will be seen as Trolling which is not tolerated on the Forum.
Now re- the Click as you call it I can assure you those days have gone but at the same time you will only ever get out what you put in regarding the forum. I have read through your posting history and I have to be honest it does read like someone who is out of their depth in the testing world, now that my seem harsh but it's how it appears, We have long said that the lads will help anyone they can if the person asking gives them as much information as possible in the opening post, but they will not just spit out answers willy nilly.
Maybe as suggested you should fill out your profile to give members a better idea of your quals and experience. Another suggestion from me would be to try and gain some experience from a more experienced inspector ( perhaps share a eicr with them and share the profit ) thisway you will start to see it from a different perspective.
And finally if you take offence to a reply by another member then simply report it!! Don't derail the thread otherwise it will be closed.