Washing Machine in Bathroom

[oldtimer]

Yep I have said it before people come on here not just to get advice but to get the answer they are looking for. I have been asked twice funny enough by Johnny Foreigners and I gave them a full explanation why I said no to power in the bathroom and they were not pleased and no doubt kept getting people in until someone says ok mate £60 cash and its done. For me if there was a fatality I would charge the guy who put it in and the owner who instructed him for manslaughter .

I have also had to strip a socket out of a bathroom that was installed by Johnny Foreigner because the new owner did not think it was right

 

[Engineer54]

Yep I have said it before people come on here not just to get advice but to get the answer they are looking for. I have been asked twice funny enough by Johnny Foreigners and I gave them a full explanation why I said no to power in the bathroom and they were not pleased and no doubt kept getting people in until someone says ok mate £60 cash and its done. For me if there was a fatality I would charge the guy who put it in and the owner who instructed him for manslaughter .

I have also had to strip a socket out of a bathroom that was installed by Johnny Foreigner because the new owner did not think it was right

So explain again, why can't/shouldn't we have a protected socket outlet in a bathroom??
Are all the westernised countries like Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, America, Canada, (and i could go on) all wrong and the UK is right?? I'm not talking about Eastern European countries here, they have very little in the way of electrical regulations, or they do but not adhered too... The idiots of this world span the globe, the last thing any country should be is a nanny state, that uses them as the common denominator...

 

[Ducksy]

The amount of homes I visit where someone has fitted an electric shower in a bedroom is on the increase

Shower tray right next to a socket outlet, and although the shower is on a nice shiny new RCD shower CCU, the old socket outlet is on a BS3036.

Recipe for disaster..... I always advise but what can you do.

 

[Outspoken]

So explain again, why can't/shouldn't we have a protected socket outlet in a bathroom??
Are all the westernised countries like Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, America, Canada, (and i could go on) all wrong and the UK is right?? I'm not talking about Eastern European countries here, they have very little in the way of electrical regulations, or they do but not adhered too... The idiots of this world span the globe, the last thing any country should be is a nanny state, that uses them as the common denominator...

It's not about a nanny state, it's about stopping people from killing other members of their family or visitors. Of course a person is able to run an extension lead into a bathroom, you cannot legislate out every idiotic action, but the fact is that putting a socket in a bathroom is simply a bad idea and other European states and the USA DO HAVE IT WRONG and their death rates by electric shock are a clear demonstration of this.

In this country, for many years, you have been able to install a safety socket in the form of a "shaver socket" that is connected to a the lighting circuit via an isolating transformer, these have a rating up to 6A though most are less. Please explain to me and the rest of the members here what you would possibly need in a bathroom that could not be powered by such a socket?? Justify the use of a standard, even if protected, 13A socket in Zone 1 of a bathroom??

 

[Engineer54]

Outspoken;765950]It's not about a nanny state, it's about stopping people from killing other members of their family or visitors. Of course a person is able to run an extension lead into a bathroom, you cannot legislate out every idiotic action, but the fact is that putting a socket in a bathroom is simply a bad idea and other European states and the USA DO HAVE IT WRONG and their death rates by electric shock are a clear demonstration of this.


In this country, for many years, you have been able to install a safety socket in the form of a "shaver socket" that is connected to a the lighting circuit via an isolating transformer, these have a rating up to 6A though most are less. Please explain to me and the rest of the members here what you would possibly need in a bathroom that could not be powered by such a socket?? Justify the use of a standard, even if protected, 13A socket in Zone 1 of a bathroom??

Really, can you substantiate that statement?? I wouldn't bother, as i know for a FACT that you can't!!

So you actually think that the use of an extension lead brought into the bathroom, is better than a sensibly placed 10mA protected socket outlet do you?? Wow!!!

Unless things have changed, your talking about a Shaver outlet, which used to be, as far as i remember, limited to 100VA. You obviously don't have any teenage daughters, or you wouldn't be asking that question!! Think along the lines of hairdryers, hair tongs, and the multitude of other girly electrical hair type appliances etc. ...lol!! As for positioning a socket outlet near a shower etc, ...have i said anything of the sort in this thread or anywhere else?? ...No, i've clearly stated, ''sensibly'' placed!! Your right about one thing though, you can't (and shouldn't) legistrate for every idiotic action!!

Think i've already stated, that i was myself inducted into this draconian No power sockets in bathrooms philosophy, until i started working overseas and found them being available in just about every country i've ever lived, visited and worked in.

 

[tazz]

This is actually true...you can take any country arcross the med and they all have washing machines installed in bathrooms (right or wrongly) as for for shaver sockets will they are isolated via transformers.

 

[Engineer54]

This is actually true...you can take any country arcross the med and they all have washing machines installed in bathrooms (right or wrongly) as for for shaver sockets will they are isolated via transformers.

Personally i think it's a crazy idea, especially in houses. I've seen the delivery men struggling away, getting heavy washing machines up and down the stairs!! lol!! Wouldn't like the clear-up either, if any of the flexible pipes burst or whatever, it's bad enough on the ground floor!! lol!!

 

[tazz]

Personally i think it's a crazy idea, especially in houses. I've seen the delivery men struggling away, getting heavy washing machines up and down the stairs!! lol!! Wouldn't like the clear-up either, if any of the flexible pipes burst or whatever, it's bad enough on the ground floor!! lol!!

In Malta & Libyia used to make me laugh as the lifts were so poorly maintained, they had to used the stairs in appartments..

 

[Engineer54]

In Malta & Libyia used to make me laugh as the lifts were so poorly maintained, they had to used the stairs in appartments..

From what i can remember from my time in Libya, nothing much worked in apartment blocks, least of all the lifts!! lol!! All were too old, with no maintenance and no spare parts available. Even the majority of cars, trucks and lorries were 30 years old and held together with duct tape and string...lol!!

 

[ackbarthestar]

Firstly,I would want to know which ways the doors opened to both the bathroom and airing cupboard.

Secondly I would want to know the condition of the flooring, whether or not it should be tiled, as stated by E54, how would you deal with leaks?.

Thirdly, what protection other than RCDs might be available to reduce a fault on one circuit appearing on another or exposed metalwork in the bathroom?.

I personally think the bottom saver will be all circuits protected by a RCD, although not always as full proof and people think.

 

[oldtimer]

I think we can all agree the the majority of bathrooms there is no room for a washing machine so whats the problem well baths are being stripped out and shower cubicles are being fitted and funny enough freeing up some space where the owner thinks well they can do this in Spain so why cannot we. well for me at a push in a shower room but again not in a bathroom why well say you fit a washing machine but you get a twin socket above it great you can plug you hairdryer in or what about a radio great but you have had a hard day and you want a bath to relieve the stresses of the day but the big match is on the radio and the only good reception is on the edge of the washing machine next to the bath............................................

So what I am saying here its all about risk so remember when we introduced smoke alarms or seat belts or air bags or gas checks I could go on but the death rate dropped big time because of these measures so do we really want to introduce risk into the bathroom

 

[Adam W]

What's the actual reason for putting the washing machine in the bathroom and not somewhere on the ground floor, like, say, the kitchen, utility room, garage etc?
I'm not saying you can't put a washing machine in a bathroom - the regs allow it and as mentioned it's quite common in other countries, but it seems to be mainly in flats where it's no more difficult to get the washing machine in and out of the bathroom than it is anywhere else.

I remember years ago we had a washing machine in the bathroom in a flat in Turkey, and yes on more than one occasion it discharged all over the floor. Fortunately the floor was tiled and there was a drain in the bathroom, as seemed to be the custom over there, so the water drained away without too much bother. Had the washing machine been in the kitchen where there wasn't a drain, the water could have either leaked into the lounge, or under the door and down the communal staircase, so it made sense to have it in the bathroom rather than putting it in there for the sake of it.

 

[telectrix]

can't see the point anyway. you have a bath, you have a " her indoors". buy her a dolly peg. who needs a washing machine?

 

[ackbarthestar]

can't see the point anyway. you have a bath, you have a " her indoors". buy her a dolly peg. who needs a washing machine?

Surely, you know the reasons why?
The girls want to have fun, do their hair and off out partying. There's no time left to wash her fella's undertrollies... Wear them for a few months and just leave them on the floor and they somehow manage to make their own way into the WM...

 

[Engineer54]

So what I am saying here its all about risk so remember when we introduced smoke alarms or seat belts or air bags or gas checks I could go on but the death rate dropped big time because of these measures so do we really want to introduce risk into the bathroom

Yes i think we can all agree about washing machines in bathrooms. lol!! But i will point out, that the bathrooms in most modern houses within Cyprus (2.5 X 3m is very common) and many other Med countries are quite a lot bigger than most found in the UK ...lol!!

If someone wanted to watch or listen to the big match while having a bath, in the UK, without doubt, in will come the extension lead. Same as many of the female gender will want to sort their hair out in the bathroom. So as i said before, what is the better safety situation, an extension lead of unknown quality, or a suitably placed 10mA protected socket?? I just think it's a No-Brainer myself....

 

[Outspoken]

Really, can you substantiate that statement?? I wouldn't bother, as i know for a FACT that you can't!!

So you actually think that the use of an extension lead brought into the bathroom, is better than a sensibly placed 10mA protected socket outlet do you?? Wow!!!

Unless things have changed, your talking about a Shaver outlet, which used to be, as far as i remember, limited to 100VA. You obviously don't have any teenage daughters, or you wouldn't be asking that question!! Think along the lines of hairdryers, hair tongs, and the multitude of other girly electrical hair type appliances etc. ...lol!! As for positioning a socket outlet near a shower etc, ...have i said anything of the sort in this thread or anywhere else?? ...No, i've clearly stated, ''sensibly'' placed!! Your right about one thing though, you can't (and shouldn't) legistrate for every idiotic action!!

Think i've already stated, that i was myself inducted into this draconian No power sockets in bathrooms philosophy, until i started working overseas and found them being available in just about every country i've ever lived, visited and worked in.

When I get in from work I shall substantiate my statement and yes I do have a teenage daughter, no I do not live in China that has a low opinion on the value of life and a 100VA Tx is enough for a radio in the bathroom, anything else is plain stupid.

Just because everyone does it does not make it or them right, there was a time when everyone lived in trees, we don't any more..and that started with a few going against the grain..

Incidentaly, stating someone will bring an extension lead into a bathroom is not the same as sanctioning it or stating it is a better solution..extension leads in bathroom is even more idiotic than sockets.

 

[telectrix]

but are these trtees RCD protected? do they have a preservation order? have to be carefull not to damasge the tree.

 

[Toonlad]

OK so I'm new here, but why are people banging on about what the Johnny Foreigners do in their home nation, we are in the UK not the USA or, god forbid, France. We have the lowest electrical death rates per head of population in the developed world, we may bemoan the regs at times, but they were written the way they are because most people are thick and simply ignore common sense when it comes to the electricity in their homes.

Sockets in normal sized bathrooms is a stupid idea, washing machines or other white goods is equally stupid, but if you are going to be stupid, put a RCD on the thing at least and show some common sense.

So explain again, why can't/shouldn't we have a protected socket outlet in a bathroom??
Are all the westernised countries like Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, America, Canada, (and i could go on) all wrong and the UK is right?? I'm not talking about Eastern European countries here, they have very little in the way of electrical regulations, or they do but not adhered too... The idiots of this world span the globe, the last thing any country should be is a nanny state, that uses them as the common denominator...

It's not about a nanny state, it's about stopping people from killing other members of their family or visitors. Of course a person is able to run an extension lead into a bathroom, you cannot legislate out every idiotic action, but the fact is that putting a socket in a bathroom is simply a bad idea and other European states and the USA DO HAVE IT WRONG and their death rates by electric shock are a clear demonstration of this.

In this country, for many years, you have been able to install a safety socket in the form of a "shaver socket" that is connected to a the lighting circuit via an isolating transformer, these have a rating up to 6A though most are less. Please explain to me and the rest of the members here what you would possibly need in a bathroom that could not be powered by such a socket?? Justify the use of a standard, even if protected, 13A socket in Zone 1 of a bathroom??

Really, can you substantiate that statement?? I wouldn't bother, as i know for a FACT that you can't!!

So you actually think that the use of an extension lead brought into the bathroom, is better than a sensibly placed 10mA protected socket outlet do you?? Wow!!!

Unless things have changed, your talking about a Shaver outlet, which used to be, as far as i remember, limited to 100VA. You obviously don't have any teenage daughters, or you wouldn't be asking that question!! Think along the lines of hairdryers, hair tongs, and the multitude of other girly electrical hair type appliances etc. ...lol!! As for positioning a socket outlet near a shower etc, ...have i said anything of the sort in this thread or anywhere else?? ...No, i've clearly stated, ''sensibly'' placed!! Your right about one thing though, you can't (and shouldn't) legistrate for every idiotic action!!

Think i've already stated, that i was myself inducted into this draconian No power sockets in bathrooms philosophy, until i started working overseas and found them being available in just about every country i've ever lived, visited and worked in.

When I get in from work I shall substantiate my statement and yes I do have a teenage daughter, no i do not live in China that has a low opinion on the value of life and a 100VA Tx is enough for a radio in the bathroom, anything else is plain stupid.

Just because evryone does it does not make it right, there was a time when everyone lived in trees, we don't any more..and that started with a few going against the grain..

Going to crack the popcorn out on this one, i think there is some mileage in it

 

[Outspoken]

Going to crack the popcorn out on this one, i think there is some mileage in it

View attachment 18701

Nah, just difference of opinion and attitude...I'm right and he is wrong, Nuff said..Muhahahaha

 

[Outspoken]

but are these trtees RCD protected? do they have a preservation order? have to be carefull not to damasge the tree.

Tel, only the lights in the tree have to be RCD protected as per section 559.10 as they cannot be placed out of reach of said tree occupants.

 

[Outspoken]

Low voltage electrocutions and fatal electrical burns from low voltage electricity supplies
[TABLE="width: 640"]
[TR]
[TD]Country
[/TD]
[TD]Year of Data
[/TD]
[TD]Extrapolated Instances
[/TD]
[TD]Recorded Instances
[/TD]
[TD]Major Injuries
[/TD]
[TD]Total Deaths
( Inc. Fire )
[/TD]
[TD]Death from shock cause only
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]UK
[/TD]
[TD]2010/2011
[/TD]
[TD]2,500,000
[/TD]
[TD]350,000
[/TD]
[TD]120,573
[/TD]
[TD]254
[/TD]
[TD]28
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]France
[/TD]
[TD]2010
[/TD]
[TD]8,300,00
[/TD]
[TD]1,200,585
[/TD]
[TD]357,642
[/TD]
[TD]2,584
[/TD]
[TD]241
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Germany
[/TD]
[TD]2010
[/TD]
[TD]5,400,00
[/TD]
[TD]2,807,548
[/TD]
[TD]468,524
[/TD]
[TD]2,113
[/TD]
[TD]193
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Spain
[/TD]
[TD]2009
[/TD]
[TD]11,200,000
[/TD]
[TD]684,524
[/TD]
[TD]2,133,476
[/TD]
[TD]87,244
[/TD]
[TD]22,573
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]United States
[/TD]
[TD]2010/2011
[/TD]
[TD]34,500,00
[/TD]
[TD]11,245,973
[/TD]
[TD]2,457,663
[/TD]
[TD]158,473
[/TD]
[TD]57,627
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mexico
[/TD]
[TD]2009
[/TD]
[TD]18,700,000
[/TD]
[TD]876,542
[/TD]
[TD]387,991
[/TD]
[TD]289,241
[/TD]
[TD]Not recorded
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brazil
[/TD]
[TD]2010
[/TD]
[TD]18,250,000
[/TD]
[TD]1,864,551
[/TD]
[TD]846,552
[/TD]
[TD]79,241
[/TD]
[TD]25,445
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]India
[/TD]
[TD]2008
[/TD]
[TD]98,000,000
[/TD]
[TD]16,112,300
[/TD]
[TD]1,542,119
[/TD]
[TD]198,537
[/TD]
[TD]Not Recorded
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]South Africa
[/TD]
[TD]2009
[/TD]
[TD]4,800,000
[/TD]
[TD]1,937,112
[/TD]
[TD]78,336
[/TD]
[TD]52,010
[/TD]
[TD]791
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Australia
[/TD]
[TD]2011
[/TD]
[TD]750,000
[/TD]
[TD]112,763
[/TD]
[TD]24,497
[/TD]
[TD]2,548
[/TD]
[TD]31
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]New Zealand
[/TD]
[TD]2011
[/TD]
[TD]120,000
[/TD]
[TD]57,684
[/TD]
[TD]18,463
[/TD]
[TD]103
[/TD]
[TD]18
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Russia
[/TD]
[TD]2010
[/TD]
[TD]32,500,000
[/TD]
[TD]3,584,337
[/TD]
[TD]879,246
[/TD]
[TD]73,582
[/TD]
[TD]5,843
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Poland
[/TD]
[TD]2011
[/TD]
[TD]12,600,000
[/TD]
[TD]297,665
[/TD]
[TD]193,542
[/TD]
[TD]14,311
[/TD]
[TD]1,967
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Canada
[/TD]
[TD]2011
[/TD]
[TD]285,000
[/TD]
[TD]98,246
[/TD]
[TD]25,887
[/TD]
[TD]112
[/TD]
[TD]12
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here we go, all that comes from several sources and is courtesy of the International Electrotechnical Committee.

Now clearly the UK is not the best in terms of absolutes, but take into account population and then do the maths...I was surprised by France and Germany, did not expect them to be so high. I have included the deaths attributable to fires started by electrical faults as these are classed as "electrical deaths". There was information about the breakdown of those figures to those attributable to faulty installations and faulty equipment but I thought the figures above would be sufficient to demonstrate the point that the UK is amongst the safest, if not the safest, country in the world for electric shock.

The UK deaths are broken down into 6 Professional Electricians/Engineers and the rest are Domestic deaths or those unqualified in commercial settings, only 6 deaths overall (From total deaths) were in commercial premises, the rest are all domestic fires.

Sadly there is no breakdown of these figures into similar detail as there is for the UK, the UK data is from the HSE website.

 

[specs]

Sockets in bathrooms... no. Ext leads in bathrooms.... not our jurisdiction, user will do whatever they want, regardless . W/machines in bathrooms, seen it a few times, always in a cupboard, never seen one just sitting there all lonely and in the middle of the floor. My opinion, i would never install unless it was enclosed in a cupboard and on rcd or 12v battery (max) operated supply.

 

[Engineer54]

Could you pass on this link, either here or through the PM. I have a distinct dislike for tabulated reports of this type, as most of them can be pulled apart at it's routes!! lol!!

 

[Outspoken]

Could you pass on this link, either here or through the PM. I have a distinct dislike for tabulated reports of this type, as most of them can be pulled apart at it's routes!! lol!!

See my post, I said it was various sources not a specific table, I put it in table form in no particular order as it made it easier for me to post the information here. The majority is fro the IEC pages for members, the English data is a combination of the HSE and the CIBSE websites...oddly enough the hardest data to find was the US.

I am not claiming the figures are 100% accurate as I cannot speak for any data other that the UK and possibly the German and French records within Europe. Aus and NZ tend to pretty decent at recording this type of stat so I suspect they are reliable. However without know the criteria that was used for each data set on what was or was not an electrical related death or injury I accept this is up in the air.

The data is a guide to support my comment about the UK and our electrical installation safety as a result of some of the best regs in the world, even if they are written in legalise by lawyer wannabees who redefine grey statements!

If you can find any other data from reliable sources by all means do, however I would suggest if we are going to discuss this at length, which I have no problem with, it should, perhaps, be in a separate thread so we do not highjack this any more than we already have.

 

[spark 68]

BTW I believe NZ repealed their part P laws :wink_smile:

So that's why they have better figures than us lol.:50:

 

[oldtimer]

well our figures are that low so whats the point of Part P lol

 

[spark 68]

well our figures are that low so whats the point of Part P lol

Come on OT, you know the reasons for that :wink_smile: lol, so we can give our hard earned to the ' scam providers' :45:
'

 

[Engineer54]

That's the trouble with statistics you can make them show whatever the author wants them to show, depending on what angle your coming from. To be honest i have no intention of trolling all the various sources. But compiling them as you have done above, without a common criteria can't be done and probably why your seeing such wide discrepancies between these western nations. It also pretty much proves nothing...

By the way, the US and Canada have pretty much the same codes, (both allow the same RCD outlets in bathrooms) So there is something very wrong somewhere in the criteria and statistic's being used, even if you make allowances for population differences. It's going to be the same for all those western countries with internationally recognised electrical codes!!

It certainly doesn't and won't change my mind on protected outlets in Bathrooms... lol!!

 

[Adam W]

Doesn't the 'no sockets in bathrooms' rule reinforce the idea that mixing water and electricity is a bad idea?

I was brought up on that and still respect it, but maybe the British are sticklers for obeying rules.

Perhaps the 18th edition could be updated to include sockets in bathrooms with 10mA protection so make things more convenient, or greatly reduced to something along the lines of:
"Just do what you want as long as it works".

 

[spark 68]

TBF I don't see a problem with it if it was on it's own circuit with a 10mA RCD, or even a 6mA jobby.

Of course suitably positioned away from water jets and the like

 

[tazz]

Suitable Positon and being plumbed in correctly is the key....

 

[Engineer54]

Let's hope the rawl bolts hold!! lol!! I wouldn't like to be sitting on that thrown when the washing machine is in spin mode with an unbalanced load being thrown about inside it!! lol!!

 

[Outspoken]

I suppose if your constipated and you sit under it on a spin cycle it may solve the problem .

 

[Outspoken]

That's the trouble with statistics you can make them show whatever the author wants them to show, depending on what angle your coming from. To be honest i have no intention of trolling all the various sources. But compiling them as you have done above, without a common criteria can't be done and probably why your seeing such wide discrepancies between these western nations. It also pretty much proves nothing...

By the way, the US and Canada have pretty much the same codes, (both allow the same RCD outlets in bathrooms) So there is something very wrong somewhere in the criteria and statistic's being used, even if you make allowances for population differences. It's going to be the same for all those western countries with internationally recognised electrical codes!!

It certainly doesn't and won't change my mind on protected outlets in Bathrooms... lol!!

You are clearly implying some form of massaging or manipulation of the data and you would be wrong on that, it is simply the raw data as I found it with some spurious breakdowns removed to avoid an overly complicated table and confusing the issue.

I agree that data can be manipulated and your comment about the US and Canada and their codes is such a straw man argument that it does not do you justice. I lived in Canada for 5 years more than 20 years ago and worked all over the States due to the work, and education and attitude is a major issue south of the border, like it or not.

We also need to take into account that in the UK if the Fire Brigade are unable to find the cause of a fire they list it as "Electrical", it is likely that other nations may do the same, and if this is the case then there could well be a lot of records that are simply incorrectly labelled by the relevant authorities.

With regards sockets in bathrooms, we will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[diabalo]

The main problem with the kind of stats we have is that they do not discriminate well. What is at stake is a proper empirical understanding of the way in which compliant installations exceed the safety of installations which are non-compliant, or compliant but installed by an amateur. Although we know theoretically that modern standards and practice are potentially much safer than previously a decline in electrically related fatalities doesn't mean that it is entirely the result of regulations or compliance with regard to fixed wiring installations. We need to collect much better, detailed data to prove that and I doubt that we will ever see such data. Improvements in fire safety education, use of equipment, quality of consumer products and whole range of other building control practices need to be controlled for.
Governments pass all kinds of legislation all the time based on poor or no real evidence in all spheres from health to education to social policy. Interesting that NZ have repealled their Part p. Didn't know that. I wonder what they based that on?

 

[oldtimer]

Maybe NZ repealed their Part P because it was uninforcable plus or the death rate did not change and plus the current economical climate was stopping growth.

Dont get me wrong Part P was a good idea when the trade was short of sparks and the logic of Schemies policing it sounded good so where did it go wrong well the Schemies drove the 5 week courses for domestics when they should have been 18-24 months plus instead of producing a steady stream of "Domestic" electricians our trade is now saturated with Electrical Trainee who cannot be blamed as they were sold the dream.

So instead of propping up the trade the Schemies have ended up diluting it and ironically in my view made a mockery of Part P and are now paying the price so instead of going back to the government and saying ok we will police individuals until they are competent to work independantly nope they have tried to hold on to existing because they see the money but don't reralise the Golden Goose syndrome.

Now for anyone who thinks O yea well look at it this way years ago people served their time then were competent to work on their own and when the regs got changed they went back to college to get updated to ensure their JIB or SJIB card would be u to date. Now this system worked and we never had the mess we have now so getting back to NZ maybe they sat down one day and figured this out and were brave enough to say You know what we were wrong so lets repeal this.

 

[Outspoken]

The main problem with the kind of stats we have is that they do not discriminate well. What is at stake is a proper empirical understanding of the way in which compliant installations exceed the safety of installations which are non-compliant, or compliant but installed by an amateur. Although we know theoretically that modern standards and practice are potentially much safer than previously a decline in electrically related fatalities doesn't mean that it is entirely the result of regulations or compliance with regard to fixed wiring installations. We need to collect much better, detailed data to prove that and I doubt that we will ever see such data. Improvements in fire safety education, use of equipment, quality of consumer products and whole range of other building control practices need to be controlled for.
Governments pass all kinds of legislation all the time based on poor or no real evidence in all spheres from health to education to social policy. Interesting that NZ have repealled their Part p. Didn't know that. I wonder what they based that on?

Can't find anything to disagree with there but I do not think that the IET playing with the Regs is making installations inherently safer, the tinkering we have seen over the last decade is simply examples, IMHO, of health and Safety compliance gone mad. The Regs claim that Domestic premises are more likely to have incompetent people in them than commercial premises and thus the higher standard, odd really, I wonder were the writers of the regs think the commercial people live? generally in life I find people leave their brain at home when they go to work and not the other way around. But the changing of the Regs to encompass commercial premises would be a game changer as the money men would get involved.

The only real way of improving things further is education of the public, restriction of DIY electrical work and better training of those entering the industry back to a level we saw in the 1970's and early 1980's when we had true apprenticeships and not these pathetic excuses of a course run by JTL and the Electrical Trainee providers.

Maybe NZ repealed their Part P because it was uninforcable plus or the death rate did not change and plus the current economical climate was stopping growth.

Dont get me wrong Part P was a good idea when the trade was short of sparks and the logic of Schemies policing it sounded good so where did it go wrong well the Schemies drove the 5 week courses for domestics when they should have been 18-24 months plus instead of producing a steady stream of "Domestic" electricians our trade is now saturated with Electrical Trainee who cannot be blamed as they were sold the dream.

So instead of propping up the trade the Schemies have ended up diluting it and ironically in my view made a mockery of Part P and are now paying the price so instead of going back to the government and saying ok we will police individuals until they are competent to work independantly nope they have tried to hold on to existing because they see the money but don't reralise the Golden Goose syndrome.

Now for anyone who thinks O yea well look at it this way years ago people served their time then were competent to work on their own and when the regs got changed they went back to college to get updated to ensure their JIB or SJIB card would be u to date. Now this system worked and we never had the mess we have now so getting back to NZ maybe they sat down one day and figured this out and were brave enough to say You know what we were wrong so lets repeal this.

Part P was introduced as a knee jerk reaction because a kitchen fitter killed an MP's daughter, they changed the methodology of implementation after it was given the Prescott's Office to deal with and after that it went down hill fast.

The electrical industry in this country is in crisis, but as yet it has not realised it had a stroke. Standards are slipping, those being trained now are unable to differentiate between their rear and their elbow, most have no idea how to do proper electrical calculations or understand how some of the kit works, they lack drive and determination for the most part and the NICEIC, IET, JIB and all other bodies with influence do nothing about it as they cannot earn any money out of making changes...

It'll likely take the death of someone ubber famous for any real debate to happen

 

[Engineer54]

You are clearly implying some form of massaging or manipulation of the data and you would be wrong on that, it is simply the raw data as I found it with some spurious breakdowns removed to avoid an overly complicated table and confusing the issue.

I'm not implying you have massaged or manipulated the data you have found!! What i'm saying is, that what you have done in combining these figures from different sources into a single table, does not and cannot work. Your combining figures based on different criteria and by your own admission unknown criteria.... In other words it's a totally meaningless table.

I agree that data can be manipulated and your comment about the US and Canada and their codes is such a straw man argument that it does not do you justice. I lived in Canada for 5 years more than 20 years ago and worked all over the States due to the work, and education and attitude is a major issue south of the border, like it or not.

Your not the only one that has spent time in the States/Canada, so don't go there. Are you really trying to convince us that your stated 57,700 instances as against 12 is anywhere representable between the States and Canada that use the same basic electrical codes??

We also need to take into account that in the UK if the Fire Brigade are unable to find the cause of a fire they list it as "Electrical", it is likely that other nations may do the same, and if this is the case then there could well be a lot of records that are simply incorrectly labelled by the relevant authorities.

Your taking overall data, even for the UK and wrongly applying them, as an argument against protected socket outlets in bathrooms. How many from each country actually met their death from electrocution in the bathroom?? I'm sorry but this is all proving nothing, the whole table becomes even more pointless.

With regards sockets in bathrooms, we will simply have to agree to disagree.

That goes without saying!! lol!!

Fires and electrocution is a strange combination to base a report/statistics on, unless there is a purpose for it's combination, as you state for the fire brigade to arbitrarily blame ''electrical''!!

 

[Outspoken]

Odd way to reply with quoting your own past, but hey ho.

I love the way you claim that the figures must be meaningless because I have put them together in a table...what a daft thing to say. To imply they are not truly reflective for various reasons that make sense is 100% spot on and will not get a disagreement from me, but your comments are laughable.

As for me taking UK data and wronlgy applying, please explain, have you some gift that allows you to rewrite mathematical norms?

With respect the Fire brigade, take that up with them, they are the one who do it. It is clear that if they cannot explain a fire they class it as electrical, that does not make it right or logical to me anymore than you, but that is a fact and that is a fact we have to deal with. As I said, I do not know if other nations do this, however i have fired off an email to a Fire Investigator I know in the States to get his thoughts on the electrical fire issue and if they have national guidelines in the states for this or each state does it differently.

 

[telectrix]

I think all unexplained fires shoud be blamed on plumbers.