100ms time delay rcd on main domestic unit?g

[cmp260]

my house has 100ms time delay rcd main switch. why would this have been installed in a house? is it legal?
thanks

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Have you got anymore consumer units or RCD's on the same installation? Yes it's legal

 

[telectrix]

probably as it's a TT earthing system. a rough idea of when it was installed, has it got any 30mA RCDs?

 

[cmp260]

there is a 30mA Rcd half way down the bus
would this setup be acceptable for eicar or unsatisfactory?
also, there are two breakers which are lableled cooker and central heating, these are unused the wires go nowhere, , its lagacy of old house, cooker and ch are on kitchen ring now
should it fail eicar for this?
ta

 

[Steve_P]

I have one of those up front in my place!!!

Next door neighbour has one in his board on the side that controls the garage/workshop too.

 

[Octopus]

OK matey. What are you? A trainee, apprentice, DIYer or homeowner??

 

[Steve_P]

there is a 30mA Rcd half way down the bus
would this setup be acceptable for eicar or unsatisfactory?
also, there are two breakers which are lableled cooker and central heating, these are unused the wires go nowhere, , its lagacy of old house, cooker and ch are on kitchen ring now
should it fail eicar for this?
ta

So it controls nothing? Why would it be a fail on an EICR?

 

[cmp260]

worked in telcomms for many years matey, well up on electrics and hands on eletronics but not familiar with this stuff, dont worry im not diy, just wanna know exactly whats going on and dont wanna be taken for a ride by the bloke who failed my eicar,

 

[Steve_P]

Tell you what CMP mate, tell us all the facts and why you're asking and we can give you the why's and wherefores until then I'm off to the boozer. Bye.

 

[cmp260]

thats what i thought, if it controls nothing, why would it fail
is he taking the p*ss?

 

[MDJ]

dont worry im not diy,

Really? :38:

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

No he is not taking the pee

Unable to trace final circuit... if he has it as a c2 its a fail, c3 then not, i thought it was c2 but im not 100% sure, hence the edit

Fail.. End of story

 

[cmp260]

many thanks llandeilo, a straight answer
so is c2 fail and c3 pass?
and would unconnected but labeled breakers be c2 as well?

 

[Octopus]

I think you need to give us more info

Against each of the C1, C2 and C3 there should be a statement - can you list them?

And add in the one that covers your other thread too!!

 

[brman]

cmp, you really need to explain what you have a bit clearer....

a 100mA RCD main switch feeding a few MCBs and a 30mA RCD which then feeds the remainder of the MCBs?

Nothing obvious wrong with that so far.
2 MCBs where the "wires go nowhere". So their are cables to these MCBs? where does the other end go to? is it terminated properly?
If this isn't clear then I'd put it down as needing more investigation.

You appear to be implying that someone has done an EICR as unsatisfactory. If this is the case what are the codes and comments?

EDIT: oops, Murdoch can type faster

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

It should not be a satisfactory outcome(pass) with any C1 or C2 but you can issue a satisfactory eicr with C3's , but what your sparky determined as C2 or C3 is down to his experience and professional judgement

 

[Octopus]

Google the electrical safety council, and there are a number of leaflets on there that you may find useful.

 

[cmp260]

its the 100ms time delay i was wondering about on the 100mA trip

sorry gota give my kids dinner now, will reply lare with list as req

 

[cmp260]

sorry feeding kids now, will reply later
many thanks

 

[telectrix]

there's nowt wrong with a 100mA delay RCD as main switch. as long as there's a 30mA RCD covering sockets for general use ( assuming the installation was done to the 16th ed. prior to 2008 when RCDs were specified for more circuits, then that would just be a code C3 ( non-compliance with current regs.) and that is NOT a fail. code C1 is a real and immediate dasnger of fire, injury or death. code C2 is a potentialo danger ......... both these are fails. a C3 is not.

 

[Des 56]

He has not described the installation
He has not outlined what has been highlighted by the inspector
Yet He wants to know if the consequences of an inspection are correct

Replies have asked for this sort of information whilst giving general views on Rcd protection,why so ?


He either supplies this information or this thread is a complete waste of all your time
:waving:

 

[cmp260]

high impedance on 25 on circuits 2 and 3
unable to locate cooker circuit
unable to locate water bond -no continuity to earth
100 ma TD main switch
unable to locate heating circuit
wrong size mcb on cooker circuit 40A
wrong size mcb on shower circuit with 6mm cable 50A

all these have code c2

im a bit annoyed since..
we no longer have an electric shower it runs off the combi boiler,
we have a gas hob, and the fan oven is rated low enoug for the kitchen ring,
the cooker circuit serves nothing

 

[trev]

high impedance on 25 on circuits 2 and 3
unable to locate cooker circuit
unable to locate water bond -no continuity to earth
100 ma TD main switch
unable to locate heating circuit
wrong size mcb on cooker circuit 40A
wrong size mcb on shower circuit with 6mm cable 50A

all these have code c2

im a bit annoyed since..
we no longer have an electric shower it runs off the combi boiler,
we have a gas hob, and the fan oven is rated low enoug for the kitchen ring,
the cooker circuit serves nothing

Unable to locate cooker circuit but it's on an incorrectly rated MCB?
I'm at a loss to understand why he would code an S type RCD as a C2
What does "high impedance on 25" mean?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

there is a 30mA Rcd half way down the bus
would this setup be acceptable for eicar or unsatisfactory?
also, there are two breakers which are lableled cooker and central heating, these are unused the wires go nowhere, , its lagacy of old house, cooker and ch are on kitchen ring now
should it fail eicar for this?
ta

you say the `wires go noware`...if so...have these cables been taken out of the terminations at the board?

o

 

[saveloy]

Unable to locate cooker circuit but it's on an incorrectly rated MCB?
I'm at a loss to understand why he would code an S type RCD as a C2
What does "high impedance on 25" mean?

Maybe high impedance on ZS.

 

[brman]

> high impedance on 25 on circuits 2 and 3
should show on the test schedule what the Zs is for those circuits. that, against the mcb ratings will say what the problem is.

>unable to locate cooker circuit
reasonable if there are actually cables going to it. easy enough to fix by disconnecting..

>unable to locate water bond -no continuity to earth
so he is saying it didn't measure out properly?

>100 ma TD main switch
based on that info - no fault....

>unable to locate heating circuit
as cooker

> wrong size mcb on cooker circuit 40A
> wrong size mcb on shower circuit with 6mm cable 50A
disconnected there would be no problem

I have to admit that most of this would have been easily sorted by disconnecting the unused circuits at the time the inspection was done......

 

[Octopus]

high impedance on 25 on circuits 2 and 3
unable to locate cooker circuit
unable to locate water bond -no continuity to earth
100 ma TD main switch
unable to locate heating circuit
wrong size mcb on cooker circuit 40A
wrong size mcb on shower circuit with 6mm cable 50A

all these have code c2

im a bit annoyed since..
we no longer have an electric shower it runs off the combi boiler,
we have a gas hob, and the fan oven is rated low enoug for the kitchen ring,
the cooker circuit serves nothing

But puzzled by first point - can you email him and ask for an explanation? On the schedule of test reults what are the readings for the Zs for these circuits???
I thought you said in your other thread he'd installed bonding to the water.
100 Ma TD main switch - not sure that's a code at all
Rest could be C2's but they are hardly costly to put right and yes the "unable to locate" circuits is harsh but correct

You asked for a EICR, so do you expect a "satisfactory" if there are issues?

Your footnote is largely irrelevent, imho

 

[CDM]

If there are two unknown circuits,I would advise that they should be isolated.Cables removed from the consumer unit and your cert will come out clean.

 

[Steve_P]

Damn it you lot can type faster than me.

Ok so bonding needs to be confirmed but by the sounds of that, most of it shouldn't take long to sort. Is the sparky really an spark? Sounds like some bloke from the pub or a Electrical Trainee just out of day release.

high impedance on 25 on circuits 2 and 3 - can't comment on this, what are these circuits? What are the results?
unable to locate cooker circuit - so disconnect it.
unable to locate water bond -no continuity to earth - that should be sorted . . . . .
100 ma TD main switch - again, doesn't mean a lot as a statement on its own.
unable to locate heating circuit - do you have heaters / a heating system? If not, dosconnect it.
wrong size mcb on cooker circuit 40A - this is the circuit that he can't locate then?
wrong size mcb on shower circuit with 6mm cable 50A - ok, the breaker is OTT so why can't the shower go into the breaker that the cooker isn't on? Depends on the shower of course but seems obvious.

we no longer have an electric shower it runs off the combi boiler, - This is probably cheaper than the electric shower, it's what I've got.
we have a gas hob, and the fan oven is rated low enoug for the kitchen ring, - what is the rating of the hob?



Without seeing the installation and the certificate and probably some photo's it's difficult to comment really. If this guy is actually an electrician there will almost certainly be a reasoning behind what has been said. Is there something that we're not being told?

 

[trev]

Maybe high impedance on ZS.

Aye, could be mate

 

[Guest55]

sounds to me as if the OP just doesnt like the verdict on his inspection - end of.

were just going round the houses here to be honest , none of us on the forum can change what your electricican has reported so just pay up for the repairs if you want a pass cert.
and fiddling with telecoms dont mean jacks**t in our world lol.
;-)

 

[cmp260]

sorry what is Zs? you could be right ive read it wrong as 25

i hired this company off mybuilder.com, for a landlord cert, eicr. they were cheapest quote, but im getting the distinct feeling they are trying to pad it out.
i actually said to the bloke when he was here sucking his teeth, why cant the mcb for non existant cooker and shower just be disconected and if any wires going to them, cut them well back. apparrently he was happier just to fail it...

im still unclear on the watermain earth though, do you have to absolutely see the connection on the water main within ?? mm of the stopcock to "pass "?

i have to say thoughi realy apprciate all the advice and no, im not going to peru

 

[PEG]

Come on Biff,don't sit on the fence....tell it like it is....:28:

 

[cmp260]

love you too biffo, the OP is happy to pay for work due, but gets a bit ****y with "cute" trademen -thats cute in the irish sense. i.e not sexy
thanks the rest of you. if you want advice on a pbx happy to help.

 

[saveloy]

i hired this company off mybuilder.com, for a landlord cert, eicr. they were cheapest quote,

Oh dear!!

 

[trev]

i hired this company off mybuilder.com

Oh dear! Not everyone on there is bad though. The earth bonds are supposed to be visible and accessible.
To be fair to the guy though he was there to report on the installation not carry out any necessary rectification

 

[cmp260]

yes, i know

 

[brman]

sorry what is Zs? you could be right ive read it wrong as 25

i hired this company off mybuilder.com, for a landlord cert, eicr. they were cheapest quote, but im getting the distinct feeling they are trying to pad it out.
i actually said to the bloke when he was here sucking his teeth, why cant the mcb for non existant cooker and shower just be disconected and if any wires going to them, cut them well back. apparrently he was happier just to fail it...

im still unclear on the watermain earth though, do you have to absolutely see the connection on the water main within ?? mm of the stopcock to "pass "?

i have to say thoughi realy apprciate all the advice and no, im not going to peru

I think you have just found out why cheap isn't always cheap ;(

No, you don't need to see the water earth the pass it. Or I wouldn't anyway - I'd say a C3 if I testing ok.
If you don't like what they have said you can always get someone else to fix the faults. If you get a cert from another spark saying all the faults on the original EICR are fixed then I believe you are good to go.....

EDIT: of course you would have to find a spark who is happy to approve the bonding by testing it and inspecting one end only. Some won't, as shown by comments here.....

 

[cmp260]

seems strange there is no hard and fast rule on the water earth, one persons c2 is anothers c3.. can this be right?

 

[Steve_P]

landlord cert, eicr.

???

Isn't the landlord responsible for all this? If you are the landlord then I'd say pay for the EICR, you know there's some issues that need to be sorted, move on from that and and get some quotes on the remedials, including the company you've already used.

im still unclear on the watermain earth though, do you have to absolutely see the connection on the water main within ?? mm of the stopcock to "pass "?

Need to be able to locate it, at least point to the cable/clamp and say "THAR SHE BLOWS!", confirming that it's connected isn't really enough and in this case it sounds like it isn't connected.

 

[richy3333]

they were cheapest quote,

Says it all really. Buy cheap, buy twice.

It's the usual drip fed, half baked stories. The OP should tell all, or say nothing.

 

[cmp260]

ok, i know this is not true test but just to stir it up, ive just stuck my multimeter neg in the earth prong of a scoket and other side to kitchen tap,: 4.5 ohms, sounds pretty connected to me and imagine you too. thats what i mean, they are taking the proverbial, ok, maybe they couldnt find the bond, but thats no reason to say its not earthed when it obviously is, right?

 

[brman]

seems strange there is no hard and fast rule on the water earth, one persons c2 is anothers c3.. can this be right?

There is no document that that states what fault is what code (there are some guidelines, but that is all they are) so it is down to the experience and common sense on what to code things as. so you can get different opinions from different sparks.

Yes, the regs state that the connections should be visible for inspection so you do not meet the regs. However is it "potentially dangerous" (C2) or "needs improvement" (c3)? that is down to judgement.
The way I judge it is on what I would do if it was my house to be happy my wife and kids are safe. So in this case, if one end was visible and it measured at less than 0.05ohm I would say that the risk of danger is low and I would give it a C3. i.e I would not rip the house apart to find the other end but I would fix it if I got the chance. Others might say that to guarantee it is safe they need to see the other end so they would give it a C2.

To be fair though, would it be that bad to cut an access panel just above the stop cock so it can be inspected? It would stop hassle every few years when you need another inspection.....

 

[brman]

ok, i know this is not true test but just to stir it up, ive just stuck my multimeter neg in the earth prong of a scoket and other side to kitchen tap,: 4.5 ohms, sounds pretty connected to me and imagine you too. thats what i mean, they are taking the proverbial, ok, maybe they couldnt find the bond, but thats no reason to say its not earthed when it obviously is, right?

no. 4.5 ohms is way too high. Needs to be less than 0.05 ohms and you won't test that with a standard multimeter! I thought you said it measured at 0 ohms?

 

[trev]

ok, i know this is not true test but just to stir it up, ive just stuck my multimeter neg in the earth prong of a scoket

Please stop poking things in sockets mate.

 

[Octopus]

sorry what is Zs? you could be right ive read it wrong as 25 "?)

Included in your EICR will be a table of test results.... Against each and every breaker/fuse/MCB there will be a series of numbers stated......Zs is probably named as "earth fault loop impedence) and should be over to the right and is a live test.

 

[cmp260]

ok thanks brman, ill rip up the stopcock cover tomorrow

 

[Steve_P]

And when all's said and done, the only thing (apart from the 2 circuits with the high Zs which need investigating) that doesn't look like a quick fix is the bonding.

Ok, I'll stick my neck out here. Based purely on what you've told us which isn't everything, without being on site and taking into account quite a other few factors. Yeah, I reckon the EICR has quite probably and rightly failed. So what? The remedial work that you describe isn't that much, even the bonding can probably be found quickly enough. The 2 circuits with the high Ze could be anything but what have these people been paid so far? A days labour? And at the cheapest quote that's probably less that 100 quid. So they tell you that some stuff needs to be sorted to make it safe? I would have to agree.

TBH, I reckon we're going round in circles with this but if you want to keep thrashing it out, it's without my input.

 

[Octopus]

He did say he went for the cheapest quote so the bloke was probably only there for a couple of hours

I'd like to see the Zs figures (hint, hint, see my post #46)

 

[Des 56]

ok, i know this is not true test but just to stir it up, ive just stuck my multimeter neg in the earth prong of a scoket and other side to kitchen tap,: 4.5 ohms, sounds pretty connected to me and imagine you too. thats what i mean, they are taking the proverbial, ok, maybe they couldnt find the bond, but that is no reason to say its not earthed when it obviously is, right?

There you go then,if your happy with that,it is your call
There is obviously more involved in testing and interpretation of results than you are aware of

The spark was there to report on the installation not to carry out remedial works,so critism of why he didn't disconnect and alter mcbs is unfair on that spark