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Discuss 16A off 32A ring in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Julie.

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I have actually seen this done. It may be against 'regs' but electrically sound and safe. Only the one 16A appliance could use the socket outlet because of the commercial plug & socket.

Just wondering how people got around it without running a new radial back to the CU.

As I mentioned splitting the ring into two radials is an option. But this raises another flag. A 16A radial may have a number of 13A sockets in series on it. Either the 16A appliance can be hard wired into the radial, with cable outlet, or fit the commercial plug/socket.
So if I read that right - and paraphrase:

I know/agree it is wrong, and could result in prosecution against a professional electrician if they do it.

So please could people confirm if they have done it?

What next: times, places, details - please also provide details of your defence lawyer?
 
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John-SJW

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All say a 16A appliance cannot be taken off a 32A ring because the regs say so, even though it can be done quite safely - and I have seen this done. Fine, I go with that, as we are all best going one way

I pointed out splitting the ring into two 16A radials, bringing up the point that a radial created out of the split may have 13A sockets on it, but a 16A commercial socket/plug can be fitted for a 16A appliance - unlike the Continent we do not have 16A sockets/plugs. I see no one took this one up.
 
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James

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It would not be a good idea in my opinion.

The whole idea of a circuit feeding several sockets should be able to provide for the expected loads placed on it.

So a 16A appliance on a 20A circuit would lead to a circuit breaker tripping every time more than 4A was spread across the 13A sockets.

I suggest you do some diversity calculations and see if it is acceptable.
 
J

Julie.

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I suggest you read the thread. Then tell me where I have complained. And I suggest @Taylortwocities keep his suggestions to himself.

All say a 16A appliance cannot be taken off a 32A ring because the regs say so, even though it can be done quite safely - and I have seen this done. Fine, I go with that, as we are all best going one way

I pointed out splitting the ring into two 16A radials, bringing up the point that a radial created out of the split may have 13A sockets on it, but a 16A commercial socket/plug can be fitted for a 16A appliance - unlike the Continent we do not have 16A sockets/plugs. I see no one took this one up.
Mainly because it's clearly described in the regulations

A ring, and multi-radials are designed around the use of bs1363 fittings, they each are protected by a fuse up to 13A - or have one in the appropriate plug.

Industrial 16A and so on type fittings do not have any guarantee of a fuse protecting the cables, flexes, or end appliance.

Therefore they need to realistically be on single dedicated radials, generally you use these where greater than 13A is required and therefore you are unlikely to be able to apply diversity sufficient to manage multiple 16A outlets.

I do suggest that you familiarise yourself with the regulations rather than just decide what should be ok even if its not allowed by them.
 
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ChrisElectrical88

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Mate... it’s the regs. It might be electrically sound, but if it’s not and you end up in court what are you going to say... ‘Erm yes you honour, it’s against the regs but I did consult aload of random people on a forum till someone said it’s alright so I did it’
 
DPG

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This is like the electric vehicle thread.
What is the point in asking a question if you have already made up your mind about the answer?
 
mattg4321

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Asks for advice then won’t listen to it. This guy would try to argue that black is actually white.
 
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James

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You lucky girl, @Julie.
He must be good at something to distract you from the thrilling subjects of British standard numbers!
 
D

Dartlec

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Figure 15A clearly recommends against connecting something like an Oven >2kW from a rfc, but it doesn't seem to entirely prohibit it, if diversity calcs suggest the load current is unlikely to exceed for 'long periods' (whatever those are) the current-carrying capacity of the cable.

With a new install it's clearly sensible to install a radial circuit to any fixed appliance with significant load.

Taking a more edge case, where a cheap oven with moulded plug is run from a socket on a small kitchen rfc, would that be considered as non-compliant or case dependent? I've seen that on a few 'kitchen fitter' specials on more recent properties where they haven't run a large cooker or hob feed.

Plenty of the higher quality Ovens I've seen that are made for European markets come with a requirement to fit to a 15A feed, so then trying to replace a plug mounted one in that scenario immediately causes an issue. I always install a 16 or 20A radial when I've been involved in the design, so have not run into the problem yet.

Wonder if it might become more of an issue after the B word though, since suppliers may be less interested in providing ovens with BS1363 plugs?
 
Taylortwocities

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I wrote this, which appears to conform with regs.

As I mentioned splitting the ring into two radials is an option. But this raises another flag. A 16A radial may have a number of 13A sockets in series on it. Either the 16A appliance can be hard wired into the radial, with cable outlet, or fit the commercial plug/socket.
There is nothing to stop you splitting the ring, turning it into two separate 16A (or 20, if you like) radials and connecting your 16A appliance to this radial.
You do, of course, have to take note of the existing loads on the circuit. This is contained right at the very start of BS7671 under the jazzy title "Fundamental Principles".

Ripping a house to pieces to get in a cable for a 16A radial, when there is another simpler, and cheaper, way is rather well.....
Well, welcome to the real World of electricianing. Its not always easy. sure there might be a more simple and cheaper way, but you forgot to put an important adjective in your sentence: WRONG
 
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J

John-SJW

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There is nothing to stop you splitting the ring, turning it into two separate 16A (or 20, if you like) radials and connecting your 16A appliance to this radial.
You do, of course, have to take note of the existing loads on the circuit. This is contained right at the very start of BS7671 under the jazzy title "Fundamental Principles".
Some sense at last.

Also, this inserting a 16A mcb in a circuit creating radial, would apply to changing the 32A ring to a 16A ring and inserting the 16A appliance in the 16A ring - as I suggested for a solution, to ripping apart a house unnecessarily.

One thing I do know is that many conflate recommendations (you do not have to) to actual laws (you have to do).
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I have seen people put in a dedicated radial for a '16A' appliance, even though it draws less than 13A, because the expensive Continental appliance instructions says must be protected by a 16A mcb or fuse. They insisted on a dedicated 16A supply in case the guarantee is invalidated.
 
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