Advice needed on home electricity supply

[Anns Chooks]

Can anyone advise me about electricity legislation in relation to my household supply?

Presently we have a very antiquated electric meter which is inisde our property, I got a letter saying it was at the end of its life and needed changing. I rang the company asking if it could be moved to an outside box which we have fitted to the house, but is just an empty box.
Although it would mean moving the power cables its only a matter of a few feet. That would cost us from £500 upwards.
I pointed out that the mains power supply cable presently came straight in through a wall exactly as it was fitted in the 1950's.
This o/h maintains is dangerous and illegal as its a live mains cable indoors before it reaches a meter or fuse box and all cables/meters should be on an outside wall[the meter & fuse box are presently on an internal wall above my diningroom door].

We had an electrician out from E. Mids electricity and he agreed it was unsightly but didn't believe it breached legislation. He would put forward for it to be moved, but he thought the company would appoint a project manager who would deem it too expensive to be done.

So if we are to argue our case and use safety as leavaerage does anyone know which Act I need to look at and which parts apply to this situation?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Very common for metering to be inside on older properties,and as far as I'm aware the supply authority are under no obligation to resite.

 

[telectrix]

as far as i know, EM electricity have an obligation to maintain a safe supply. however, moving the service head to a new location would be a chargeable job.

 

[malcolmsanford]

If your supply had a fused neutral you maybe able to get them to do the work without charge, but they may still charge you.

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002

The above is taken from the DNO regulatory document you may get them on something.

 

[topquark]

I have a house with the supply/meter on the inside, nothing breaching regulations with that.

 

[Anns Chooks]

Oh wow thanks for all the speedy replies guys, I thought there might be one!!!

If your supply had a fused neutral you maybe able to get them to do the work without charge, but they may still charge you.

Now no doubt that o/h would know what you are talking about but I don't have a clue!! How do I find out if my supply has a fused neutral?

 

[malcolmsanford]

The bottom left green unit is an old cast pitch type DNO head and they sometimes had a neutral fuse. To be honest if they were found now and had a fuse the DNO would change them, but over the years they have often had their fuses removed and links put in, so it would be pot luck and the heads condition that would dictate whether they changed it, it was just something if you had you could argue.

 

[Anns Chooks]

Thanks, as you say it looks like its been updated. This is what we have.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Thanks, as you say it looks like its been updated. This is what we have.

That's an interesting picture. On my link I provided section 24(1) Part B may help you get something done as that cable is certainly a wee bit tight going into that head connection.

Though they are not regulated by our regulations I would also cite reg 522.8.5 as it is in your home, if at the least they may realise they are dealing with someone that knows a bit and act on it

 

[Spudnik]

This is where it gets a bit complicated though Malc.

Although the installation in the property certainly needs updating, the supply cable, however it looks isnt technically unsafe.

Therefore, if the OP wants to move all the meters outside, then this will be at their cost, alongside an electrician to update the consumer units.

There could also be PME available at the nearest pole(s).

 

[malcolmsanford]

This is where it gets a bit complicated though Malc.

Although the installation in the property certainly needs updating, the supply cable, however it looks isnt technically unsafe.

Therefore, if the OP wants to move all the meters outside, then this will be at their cost, alongside an electrician to update the consumer units.

There could also be PME available at the nearest pole(s).

Hi Jas Though the ESQCR-2002 don't actually mention mechanical stresses on cables as such. if that picture is anything to go by there seems to be some stress on it and maybe section 24 of the ESQCR-2002 can be brought to bear.

Yes it's a long shot and most likely not get anywhere, but stranger things have happened, we had an intelligent post from Tel once.

 

[telectrix]

Hi Jas Though the ESQCR-2002 don't actually mention mechanical stresses on cables as such. if that picture is anything to go by there seems to be some stress on it and maybe section 24 of the ESQCR-2002 can be brought to bear.

Yes it's a long shot and most likely not get anywhere, but stranger things have happened, we had an intelligent post from Tel once.

and here's another intelligent post



:drool5:

 

[Anns Chooks]

Well I think if it were updated there would only be one meter, which has got to be replaced anyway. Thats really why I've started looking into it as it seems the ideal opportunity`as the power has to be off and the meters have to come down anyway [come down or fall down I think, there's only the door frame holding it all up].
Its also an utter pain in the proverbial as I can gaurantee I'm out when they call to read the meter.

 

[Des 56]

I appreciate that you are concerned with it being unsightly and inconveniant,but I fear you have 2 chances of getting it done very minimal and nill

I would however suggest that you take a little more interest in the standard of protection that you currently have for your own installation, which presents a much bigger issue than the supply set up
in my opinion

 

[Anns Chooks]

Sorry, you're going to have to spell it out for me in simple terms guys, you're talking to the uninitiated here. Whats the issue with the installation?

 

[HandySparks]

Hi Chaps,
Am I right in thinking that that's an old voltage-sensing ELCB?
What's the status of these devices re the current regs? (I suspect that they're not regarded as offering any protection.)

 

[Des 56]

Sorry, you're going to have to spell it out for me in simple terms guys, you're talking to the uninitiated here. Whats the issue with the installation?

Make a search for "voltage operated elcb" on this forum and elswhere, have a read up on the type of trip switch present in your installation

Here is a link to start you off

IET Forums - voltage operated e.l.c.b

They are not regarded as a suitable means of protection in the regulations
For reasons that are known to electricians,they may not operate when a fault occurs

They have not been installed for about 30 years or more
They are considered as obsolete and have been for eons

It is recomended that they should be replaced woth an Rcd
They cant be tested with everyday test instruments used by electricians,so their operation (dodgy though it may be)could not be determined

My advise
Have a new consumer unit,positioned so that the existing supply board can be fixed near to the cieling and the consumer unit alongside,then make a neat cupboard and box it in

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Top advise Des.

 

[telectrix]

seconded.

 

[pushrod]

Sorry, you're going to have to spell it out for me in simple terms guys, you're talking to the uninitiated here. Whats the issue with the installation?

As said already said, by Des, easiest way to tidy it up is to get it neatly boxed in and at least some rcd protection (instead of the old voltage unit) as you will be lucky to get it moved for free. I would also consider having a PIR (periodic inspection report) done as these should really be done at least every 10 years but i'm guessing this installation hasn't been looked at in 20 years. Although this could cost you around £100, if you can find a decent local spark they may well then give you some discount of subsequent work like replacing your fuse box/consumer unit as the tests needed for that are largely duplicated in the PIR. I know you might think why should i pay so much to get it tested when everything has worked so far - but the consequences of things going wrong can be serious. If you think getting your car serviced/MOTed is sensible i would apply the same logic to your electrics

 

[Engineer54]

This looks very much like a TT supply, and will therefore ''NEED'' an RCD to this installation for earth fault protection. As already suggested, ...also ask your DNO if the available overhead supply has been PME'd (TNC-S). If it has, then request that your supply head is modified to provide you with that earthing system as it will afford far greater protection than the present TT system, which in all probability, will be an earth rod in the garden, or worse still under the front pavement ....

By the way, those push button Wylex MCBs (breakers) in your CU were never considered as a very good design, and the fault levels were as i remember, also on the very low side.
So i'd be seriously considering a CU change too....

 

[Anns Chooks]

Thanks very much everybody for their contribution,

its very much appreciated. I never thought this am when I posted that it would go to three pages. I thought I'd be told to b*gger off and stop bothering folks.

I'm up to speed now and totally agree. If plan A. dosen't come off we'll go with plan B.
Now I know why you like to play with electrics, you're such bright sparks.

 

[Anns Chooks]

Hi everybody Hope everybody survived xmas intact and New year was something you remember and you've got the special valentines surprises organised!!
I've come back to update you all on this thread [after all your sleepless nights worrying about me!!]

I've been very slowly chipping away at this over the months since starting this and finally we've got an agreement!!!
When we first raised the issue EME sent out an electrician to assess, who said that whilst it wasn't very pretty and he wouldn't want it in his house he didn't think it was dangerous. But he said he would put forward a recommendation that the work be done. A couple of months went by, we heard nothing more.

I came in one afternoon to find a rather cross electrician waiting for me, suggesting if as I'd rung for someone to come out, it would be helpful if I stayed in. After being slightly amazed and explaining I'd not pursued the matter since Aug he had a look at the installation but really didn't seem able to offer an opinion of his own or really have a clue. He suggested it would be viewed as a new installation and it would cost us about £1200!! He didn't even think that having a mains cable in the house was a problem as he had one in his garage [not much difference] and that provided it was properly insulated there wasn't a problem.

At which point I asked to see his chest to see if he had a large S emblazed there as obviously he had X ray vision and could see from ground level that the cable was in good condition!!!

So that was the end of him, xmas, new year came and went and another electrician came around and he thought we'd just rung up [getting a familiar story by now] again we went through the whole process but this time o/h suggested that we would be happy to get an electrician in to do the internal tails and we would lay the cable if they would just come and do the connecting.

Then today a lady from EME came and assessed the job and make the necessary arrangements [it only took about 4 weeks this time] She asked to have a look at the meter and was utterly horrified that a mains cable was coming straight into the house and the fresh air holding the meter on the wall.

She was apologetic that it had taken since August to get this off the ground but they had just been through a major reorganisation of company structure and people were now spread all over.

For the first time in four months somebody said yes we can see the dangers lets get something done. We are going to obtain and fit conduit and they will lay the cable and move/fit new meter since we are due to have a new one fitted anyway as thats past it best by knackered date,. Not saying its old but she went into raptures over it like she just discovered an unknown rembrant!!

I wonder if I could put it on ebay!!!

So we're just waiting for her to seek some advice about organising the meter and then set a date [hopefully when the ground isn't like concrete].

Once the new meter is installed outside in the box, she will arrange for a team to come and remove all the old cable from the front of our poperty and next doors front wall as its a semi and the mains cable has come up from next door then run across our front house wall and right under our bedroom window, we can even touch it!!

So fingers crossed and six months from now I can come and report it all complete.

 

[Knobhead]

Here's hoping for a good outcome.