Bonding dilemma

[growler]

So I turned up to a job today to install an electric heating system for a company I sub for and straight away found that there is no main bonding to either gas or water. They have recently had a new extension / kitchen and a new consumer unit ( no cert though). The gas bond is not an issue as the meter is located next to the consumer unit but the water bond is a fair distance away and the customer is adamant he doesn't want me to disrupt his house anymore than it is already. I can't just walk away either as their wet system Central heating has been removed and the couple are in there 70s.
what to do ?

 

[Octopus]

Do your work. Note on cert that customer didn't want to pay for water bonding to be installed. Recommend its installed, submit invoice and walk away.

 

[Pete999]

Do your work. Note on cert that customer didn't want to pay for water bonding to be installed. Recommend its installed, submit invoice and walk away.

Yep What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[uksparks]

Without sounding stupid, are you suggesting it's acceptable to do electrical work with no holding in place? If I'm not mistaken earthing had to be up to standard or at least in place for any electrical work carried out?

 

[Octopus]

Without sounding stupid, are you suggesting it's acceptable to do electrical work with no holding in place? If I'm not mistaken earthing had to be up to standard or at least in place for any electrical work carried out?

So the client has a shiny kitchen, a new CU , no cert, no bonding. This happens ALL the time.

If the customer is adament they won't have it, what do you do? Walk away and let the next cowboy do it or do the gas, note the cert and do the rest of the work properly. I know what I would do.

 

[uksparks]

Oh I totally get the issue and understand etc, but where do you draw the line? I've got a cu to change and solid green 4mm bond on water at opposite end of house, all freshly decorated... I feel it would be wrong of me to just bite on the certificate didn't want to disturb decoration.

or... Customer doesn't realise issue of no bonding, so I write on cert customer didn't want distuption etc....

see what I mean.

 

[sparksburnout]

Some of you lads amaze me. If this was a"Electrical Trainee" suggesting this he would get pilloried. It is supposed to be set in stone, as in the OSG and all other guidance, that no work should take place unless the correct earthing and bonding is in place. Now we can just adopt the "sod it let's crack on" approach then? And some of you would be the first to moan about the demise of the industry.......

 

[Darkwood]

If you find no bonding you are required to ensure it is installed (if required) for any of your install to comply, you cannot install an electric heating system and walk away leaving the install unsafe .... When bonding is required where it is missing then it is a safety issue and if they refuse to pay for it then walk away, it is up to who ever quoted for the work to ensure the existing earthing was safe ...... and should not be dropped on the customer as a last minute issue.


Really surprised at some of the replies here...

If it had undersized earthing say 6mm that didn't meet modern regs then a recommendation could be issued and you could proceed with your work; smaller earth bonding than 6mm and I would replace as part of the work to make the install safe, a lack of a crucial safety conductor when it is required would be a failure in your position as an Electrician hence I said walk and don't do the work

 

[telectrix]

is there no water pipe you can find in a convenient position to bond to, making sure it's got continuity to the incoming water? at least you'd then have it bonded, albeit not within 600m of the stop tap.

 

[Octopus]

Some of you lads amaze me. If this was a"Electrical Trainee" suggesting this he would get pilloried. It is supposed to be set in stone, as in the OSG and all other guidance, that no work should take place unless the correct earthing and bonding is in place. Now we can just adopt the "sod it let's crack on" approach then? And some of you would be the first to moan about the demise of the industry.......

You have a point but the muppets who come up with these rules do absolutely nothing to educate Joe Public so it leaves us all in a difficult position. Which means that on occassions, and I stress occassions, such actions are necessary.

 

[Silly Sausage]

is there no water pipe you can find in a convenient position to bond to, making sure it's got continuity to the incoming water? at least you'd then have it bonded, albeit not within 600m of the stop tap.

544.1.2 (BGB)

Spot the key word!

 

[sparksburnout]

You have a point but the muppets who come up with these rules do absolutely nothing to educate Joe Public so it leaves us all in a difficult position. Which means that on occassions, and I stress occassions, such actions are necessary.

Tel has made a great point and I have done it myself a couple of times, at least bond to the water somewhere even if it's not exactly where it should be. They ain't going to rip all the plumbing out.

 

[uksparks]

If you find no bonding you are required to ensure it is installed if required for any of your install to comply, you cannot install an electric heating system and walk away leaving the install unsafe .... When bonding is required where it is missing then it is a safety issue and if they refuse to pay for it then walk away, it is up to who ever quoted for the work to ensure the existing earthing was safe ...... and should not be dropped on the customer as a last minute issue.


Really surprised at some of the replies here...

If it had undersized earthing say 6mm that didn't meet modern regs then a recommendation could be issued and you could proceed with your work smaller earth bonding and I would replace as part of the work to make the install safe, a lack of a crucial safety conductor when it is required would be a failure in your position as an Electrician hence I said walk and don't do the work

thank you! You wouldn't catch me doing the work!

 

[Darkwood]

You have a point but the muppets who come up with these rules do absolutely nothing to educate Joe Public so it leaves us all in a difficult position. Which means that on occassions, and I stress occassions, such actions are necessary.

It is upto who ever qouted the work to ensure the bonding and main earthing was correct, this applies to any installation work, the customer quite rightly probably doesn't understand the issue but there is an inherent risk of dangerous voltages been present between services and earthed metal work, this is a crucial earthing cable that needs to be present if required, no if's, no buts .... an earth bond needs installing before your sign off your work.

 

[Octopus]

is there no water pipe you can find in a convenient position to bond to, making sure it's got continuity to the incoming water? at least you'd then have it bonded, albeit not within 600m of the stop tap.

I'm doing just that next week. Needs must!

 

[davesparks]

Has anyone tested the water main to see if bonding is required? I know the regs are worded in such a way that it reads as though services must be bonded regardless, but if testing proves it to not be extraneous then it would be an exercise in futility

 

[Darkwood]

Has anyone tested the water main to see if bonding is required? I know the regs are worded in such a way that it reads as though services must be bonded regardless, but if testing proves it to not be extraneous then it would be an exercise in futility

Thats why I expressed the term if required... I assume all those posting know how to assess if its required or not

 

[growler]

Has anyone tested the water main to see if bonding is required? I know the regs are worded in such a way that it reads as though services must be bonded regardless, but if testing proves it to not be extraneous then it would be an exercise in futility

Tested it, no joy !

 

[growler]

Why were some houses wired back in the day with no bonding anyway ?

 

[telectrix]

more likely that wet-pants has ripped it off.

 

[Darkwood]

To add a note here .... this thread would be a prime example of the difference between a cowboy and a competent professional Electrician -

- The cowboy would quote for the work and not be concerned about the earthing or if he did find it missing wouldn't raise an eyebrow, although it may be a passing comment. (quite often the cowboy is also a qualified professional which is shocking .... pun aside).

- A competent professional would look as a priority when quoting the job and would include it if required as part of his quote with an explanation to the customer about the need for it in there particular install... this way they have been informed and if joe cowboy comes along cheaper and without bonding costs then the customer has made a choice knowing the risks.

 

[Delboybully]

Some of you lads amaze me. If this was a"Electrical Trainee" suggesting this he would get pilloried. It is supposed to be set in stone, as in the OSG and all other guidance, that no work should take place unless the correct earthing and bonding is in place. Now we can just adopt the "sod it let's crack on" approach then? And some of you would be the first to moan about the demise of the industry.......

I am a Electrical Trainee and if a customer doesnt want bonding then I just tell the customer it needs to be done and include it in my quote. The regs are there to ensure a safe installation, they dont make exceptions because someone doesnt want decor damaged! This may surprise you time served chaps but this was covered in my training.

I have seen a few board changes with no bonding put down as a deviation!

 

[davesparks]

I am a Electrical Trainee and if a customer doesnt want bonding then I just tell the customer it needs to be done and include it in my quote. The regs are there to ensure a safe installation, they dont make exceptions because someone doesnt want decor damaged! This may surprise you time served chaps but this was covered in my training.

I have seen a few board changes with no bonding put down as a deviation!

You can't just tell a customer what work you are going to do regardless of whether they want it done or not! The most you can do is decline to carry out any work.

Electricians have no legal power to dictate what must or must not be done in someone's house.

 

[Darkwood]

Whenever I walk in a domestic to quote, the first question is to see the Gas meter, Water Stop tap and the consumer unit..... everything else like the knicker draw I use common sense to find :juggle2:

 

[growler]

Why were some houses wired back in the day with no bonding anyway ?

Anyone ?

 

[Delboybully]

When it come to bonding, I tell the customer what needs to be done if they want me to do the work. If they dont want bonding, they dont instruct me to do the work.

The net effect is the same, they dont want bonding done, I dont get the job

 

[Darkwood]

Why were some houses wired back in the day with no bonding anyway ?

Back in the day the gas and water pipes were commonly used as the earthing system, don't forget lighting was not earthed and the nature of incoming supplies has changed too which rises the risk of network faults piggy backing on bonded services.

So in answer its down to evolving regulations to make installs safer, changing supply systems (TNCS / PME).... there was a time when earthing of any kind wasn't done but thats back in trev's days...

 

[davesparks]

Why were some houses wired back in the day with no bonding anyway ?

Many years ago the water main was used as the earth electrode, this is why you often find a 7/029 uninsulated single attached to old water mains.

 

[sparksburnout]

When it come to bonding, I tell the customer what needs to be done if they want me to do the work. If they dont want bonding, they dont instruct me to do the work.

The net effect is the same, they dont want bonding done, I dont get the job

It's frustrating, but you got to stick to your guns. I got a call to replace a shower for a landlord (nobs most of em), no main earthing and no bonding, told them it had to be done. Didn't get the job, and was working 4 houses down the next couple weeks so went and had a look in the outside meter box, still got PME terminal sitting there nowt connected. What can you say.

 

[uksparks]

Whenever I walk in a domestic to quote, the first question is to see the Gas meter, Water Stop tap and the consumer unit..... everything else like the knicker draw I use common sense to find :juggle2:

Thats exactly what i do.