Could really do with some help!

[stevie_sausage]

On Monday just gone I carried out and Electrical Installation Condition report for the company I work for their were 13 circuits across 2 C.U 5 of which were 20a radials across a rcd controlled c.u for E7, the boards were wylex type and were fitted in Oct 2009 I did the test everything was in acceptable condition apart from a couple of C2/C3 notifications. sadly, the property caught fire that night, thank God the family was safe and got out! the customer was awoke by smoke alarms triggering at about 1 am. the boards have completely disintergrated ( I've not seen them only what I have been told) only remaining is copper no plastic enclosure and none of the plastic on mcb's etc, supplier has already removed the metering equipment . the next day my company sent a company who audit samples of our work that we carry out back to the property to re-do the test to check their results were in line with mine and that the test had been carried out correctly. They where. having spoken to my employers they want me to come back to work but obviously dont want me back on the tools until they have finished their investigation. However they are not going to get a forensic specialist in to determine the cause of the fire, though I want and would welcome them to, but they wont and this is where I am hoping some of you could possibly help me....



I am aware from looking over the last few days (hindsight is a wonderful thing) that around the 2009-10 Electrium gave a recall to faulty (wylex) mcb's that could and have in some cases caught fire, I have seen a few posts on-line where unfortunately they have, if anyone has come across them causing fires could you please post what happened and how fast the fire burnt through the board. the customer went to bed at 11pm monday night and as stated was awoke at 1am so this gives a two hour window for this to mainifest itself into a full blown fire, if it was surely you would have seen some smoke or s/alarm would have triggered in the hallway were the fuseboard is situated if it was 'slow burning' also customer would have surely got the legendary fishy smell throughout the day which would really have caused alarm with me only finishing the test at 1:50pm on the monday. I cannot rule out a mistake on my part unless forensics are brought in however having been in this industry for near 20 years I have never known 2x fuseboards go completely on fire & disintergrate within 2 hours after smouldering for 9 due to a loose connection ( please enlighten me if you have) again if it was loose connections would the power have not started cutting out depending on what was loose etc (testers said everything that remained was tight btw) I'm really at a loss here and could really do with some help as a bad name in this industry sure travels quick. thank you all.

 

[Stroppy]

Before I ever put a lid back on a board even if I've only touched 1 circuit I tighten everything just out of habit.

This is a habit I have adopted, too, as so many board I have worked on seem to have had their screws done up by an infant with his thumb and forefinger. I don't think I've ever found a board which I can't get another quarter of a turn out of at least some of the screws - obviously without wrenching them up so hard that my arm aches, which would do more harm than good.

 

[Des 56]

If you were to go all "Action man" on the Wylex breakers at that time, the threads would get stripped quicker than you could aquire those aching arms lol

 

[oldtimer]

Been thinking about this and although I do not do a lot of EICRs I when I do I make it good practice to explain to the customer not to store combustible materials against the CU and service head plus I am sure the ESC did a thing on this with warning labels.Plus I always check the smoke detector before and after just to confirm they are ok because as we know electronic equipment does not like IR tests and the old customer response of well my smoke detector was working ok before you touched it so with me checking it first I can say are you aware your smoke detector is not working. Also does not help with the blame culture we live in nowadays

 

[Stroppy]

If you were to go all "Action man" on the Wylex breakers at that time, the threads would get stripped quicker than you could aquire those aching arms lol

With my weedy inbred arms that's not much of a danger!

 

[brookster]

I feel sorry for you mate I really do, if it was anything to do with you most likely you would have found out as soon as you turned the installation on.
This must weigh heavy on you and I would be pushing for the manufacturer to be done for this as someone could have died and take some of the dread from your shoulders.
Parts failing in this manner is simply unacceptable they should be taken to task over it.

 

[MDJ]

I will throw another question out here too, should older installations be ripped apart and tested to extremes which includes disconnecting all cabling from old DBs and dead tests carried out, when there's a possibility damage could occur when re-instating? I wonder if sometimes a visual inspection with limited tests be the norm rather than full on EICRs, I'm aware there are limitations between which the client and the contractor can discuss and work to, but if a company sends an employee to carry out a EICR and the employee does just that without consideration to the age of an installation and something happens who's to blame? the electrician, the boss, or the system? I wonder what will happen in this case if this sparky is found to have put a wire back in a breaker and it was loose causing the problem? a good thread this even if the poor sod who started it may not be enjoying it as much as others here, just to put my point across for any doubters, I'm on the sparks side and hope he is in no way responsible or the scapegoat. I have often wondered when carrying out a periodic or EICR as it's called now whether I should be disconnecting cabling and then reconnecting, I have wondered if I should be doing it although it is enforced by some companies for example who rent out houses etc, makes you think this thread, again I suppose it comes down to the individual spark to assess the condition of it before proceeding, a high court barrister may well get a conviction against the spark doing the test, but would he also blame the boss, the supervisor or the system, one things for sure, the people who's house burned down will want blood for this, should the regs be altered regarding EICRs and the sheets altered to ensure certain tests are carried out but ripping the system apart frowned upon, after all it's worked for years why disconnect and have a risk of a loose wire? I know there are visual inspection reports now which you can fill in regarding the visual condition of the installation, I wonder if these will catch on more after seeing this thread?

 

[oldtimer]

Remember 95% of MCBs or RCDs are made in either China or India and yes we hope the importers ie the CU manufacturers are doing quality assurance testing but me thinks not . Thing is if it is traced to faulty equipment fine but if these incidents become more common then they will do something about it

 

[brookster]

Having a tug at the cable after you have connected it and pulling at cables you are checking is pretty much standard practice imho. The MCB should trip also with excessive arcing as you will creating excess current if it's 'loose'.

 

[MDJ]

Having a tug at the cable after you have connected it and pulling at cables you are checking is pretty much standard practice imho. The MCB should trip also with excessive arcing as you will creating excess current if it's 'loose'.

I agree with your first point but after 30 years in the trade can tell you your 2nd point isn't right, I have seen this for myself on jobs several times over the years, I have seen phase cables burnt to a cinder in Fuses and MCBs still connected and the fuses and MCBS still on and the cable still taking the load, I have even seen flames on a cable at an MCB in a board, that comment won't wear with me, old timers right about the Chinese crap we get today, and infact what they made 20 years ago as well, Taiwan crap also lol

 

[brookster]

I agree with your first point but after 30 years in the trade can tell you your 2nd point isn't right, I have seen this for myself on jobs several times over the years, I have seen phase cables burnt to a cinder in Fuses and MCBs still connected and the fuses and MCBS still on and the cable still taking the load, I have even seen flames on a cable at an MCB in a board, that comment won't wear with me, old timers right about the Chinese crap we get today, and infact what they made 20 years ago as well, Taiwan crap also lol

I thought the in rush current would be enough to trip out an arcing breaker, I've never seen it happen so I will withdraw that statement.
Don't tell me anymore I get scared
Maybe it's something manufacturers could look at.

 

[MDJ]

I thought the in rush current would be enough to trip out an arcing breaker, I've never seen it happen so I will withdraw that statement.

It should maybe on a breaker which isn't faulty, but how many are? millions probably and most from the far east I bet

 

[brookster]

It should maybe on a breaker which isn't faulty, but how many are? millions probably and most from the far east I bet

Horrible stuff. Feel for OP and hope you get to the bottom of it as I doubt with your ex it was your fault.

 

[dazza1981]

us sparks have so much to think about in terms of the design,installation,testing,safety and certification,constant changes in regulations,and although job satisfaction is high and you get a good variety of work we do carry so much responsibility and sometimes our salary does not reflect this.Keep your head up mate,how many installations have you tested that you,ve walked away from without any problems.Easy for me to say but im sure your a very capable sparks and this was just bad timing.

 

[Rockingit]

I'm with Trev on the something smells fishy about this. It's just too close a time scale and too convenient. Has someone been watching Corry a little too closely??

It stands to reason that if an installation has been verified as being electrically safe, twice, then it IS electrically safe. If IR tests were done, and connections tight, with next to no load at 1am - where's the energy, where's the heat?

£55 per week - well, it's more than possible. Shower, washing machine, dishwasher....

I always take photos before, during and after all my inspections and final sign-offs on new work, for just this reason.

 

[dazza1981]

so how do you take photos to show if the connections are tight or not in the fuse board?

 

[brookster]

so how do you take photos to show if the connections are tight or not in the fuse board?

photos of you pulling on them with a newton meter

 

[dazza1981]

ha i guess so brookster i do this all the time,i use the same method with every socket and pendant to.:28:

 

[trev]

£55 a week on electricity is a hell of a lot, a mate of mine lives in a bloody big house with his Mrs and 3 daughter who spend hours in the shower. His bill is nowhere near this. My bet is, like Tel said, there's something growing there and it's gone wrong. To try to cover their arses the tenant is attempting to blame a perfectly competent spark who appears to have done his job diligently.

 

[dazza1981]

55 quid,i rekon hes got another family living in the loft.I agree with trev in that sum1s trying to cover there own backside by blaming sum1 else! Well at least thats how it seems if the installation was indeed sound after testing

 

[Rockingit]

Rough maths is £55 = 2.3kwh constant. And you're not to know if theres some element of debt repayment/combined energy involved.

Just saying it IS possible.