Discuss Dodgy EICR (Consumer) in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Good morning

I am a consumer, an accidental landlord, which means I rent out my former home as my circumstances changed a few years ago.

I need an EICR in order to carry on renting my flat.

The NICEIC registered electrician that came turned out to be unqualified and the report not worth the paper it is written on. I know this because I had another electrician look at it. Even without looking at the installation, a novice like me can see that the report is full of ambiguity with a frightening array of C2 codes. It was quite clear that faults had been invented so that this company could charge for further work.

I made a complaint to the NICEIC and they acknowledged there were ‘issues’ but insist that the original company returns to put the matter right.

This makes absolutely no sense to me and I have 2 questions.

1. If this person/company was incompetent (and probably dishonest) the first time around, why would he/they be any more competent or honest the next time?

2. What qualifications should I be looking for to engage a competent, experienced EICR-capable electrician?

I have read on your forum that even electricians with 20 years’ experience can struggle to pass the exams to do an EICR and can still trip over these codes.

This is all part of a bigger story which I’ll be happy to share, but let me start with that.

Thanks for your time.

JH4JILL
 
This makes absolutely no sense to me and I have 2 questions.

1. If this person/company was incompetent (and probably dishonest) the first time around, why would he/they be any more competent or honest the next time?

2. What qualifications should I be looking for to engage a competent, experienced EICR-capable electrician?

1. I'd imagine the only hope here would be that it's a big company and you got unlucky with one engineer. I would probably try and get a refund as you've paid for a service you didn't receive.

2. Typically you'd be looking for City & Guilds 2391 Periodic Inspection or EAL 2625 (EAL 4337/4338) - Periodic Inspection and Testing.

Do you let your property out through an lettings agent? They may be able to recommend companies that other landlords have used.

Another way would be to use electrical competent person website to find a one man band that offers the service. You know then that the CPS will have assessed that one person.
 
If the original electrician is registered with NICEIC it may be as a domestic installer only, which meanss he may not be able to cary out EICRs under the scheme rules (basically using their certification),however that does not preclude him from carrying out EICRs under his own banner ,using his own PI insurance if he has the prerequisite qualifications (C&G2391) I think it’s unlikely that he is unqualified as membership hinges on certain basic qualifications, more likely he doesn't have EICRs as part of his scheme membership.
 
There is no requirement to hold a qualification to carry out an EICR although membership to a scheme are likely to require one if that is part of your scope of works with them, the key is experience and competence. Holding a qualification which covers EICRs is absolutely no guarantee the individual is competent to do such works.
 
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As above, there is no requirement to hold any qualifications to carry out EICR’s, you only need to prove competence, and holding a level 3 certificate in inspection & testing goes towards showing competence.

However, it doesn’t guarantee the person is competent. Normally if you don’t a 2391 or equivalent qualification, you’re not allowed to carry out EICR under your scheme banner. I know this is the case for NAPIT, but can’t say for the NIC.
 
I'd love to hear the rest of the story. Ditto above. Like so many services, you never know what you are going to get. You could hire a lawyer who is pants/brilliant. Same qualificiations/experience but just not the same intelligence and honesty. I think the key factor is a person who is diligent and conscientious. Perhaps the way forward is to make it clear from the start, you will not be using the same electrician for remedial work, you will be using some other firm/electrician to put right any defects found. This is a growing trend for LLs to separate the two functions. Obviously there is a conflict of interests. Same with an MOT, again you need an honest and conscientious mechanic to ensure you will not be charged for unnecessary work.
 
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If someone is a member of a scheme I think that 'increases' the likelihood of them being able to carry out an EICR correctly, although frankly probably only a very little as being registered is unlikely to have anything to do with EICR's.

I would try 2 things. Firstly ask your neighbours for recommendations, that's always going to be better than an advert. Secondly ask on here if anyone is local. The vast majority of electricians on this site are clearly interested in doing a good job, usually to a higher standard than the average electrician.
 
If possible could you post a copy of the report, with personal details redacted, so we could take a look and offer an opinion?

I was a QS for an NICEIC approved contractor for several years and although they offer a customer gold standard warranty they rarely use it and just ty to get the original contractor to sort it out with the customer. TBH I don't have a lot of faith in their complaints procedure.
 
1. I'd imagine the only hope here would be that it's a big company and you got unlucky with one engineer. I would probably try and get a refund as you've paid for a service you didn't receive.

2. Typically you'd be looking for City & Guilds 2391 Periodic Inspection or EAL 2625 (EAL 4337/4338) - Periodic Inspection and Testing.

Do you let your property out through an lettings agent? They may be able to recommend companies that other landlords have used.

Another way would be to use electrical competent person website to find a one man band that offers the service. You know then that the CPS will have assessed that one person.
Thank you Gary

I’ll know next time! This however was a particularly odd situation.

I’ve tried to get a refund for the EICR and the company point blank refuse. They are a General Maintenance Company based in London and are notorious for taking advantage of emergency situations, putting their customers on the clock, creating unnecessary work, and charging £88 plus VAT per hour.

This company were called out on an emergency basis by my tenant who read their (self written) reviews and, not being able to get hold of me immediately- (I picked up his WhatsApp 3 hours later) called them in.

If you’re interested, I have a press story that I’ll be sending out soon which is really more about the NICEIC and their unwillingness to mediate. The EICR was actually a side issue. (I didn’t know this company’s reputation at the time and asked them, whilst they were there, to do an EICR)

So, my next question is:-
Why would an honest and competent electrician want to affiliate him/herself to a Trade Association that effectively turns a blind eye to dishonest incompetents?

PS: If you want to read the whole story, please let me know
 
If possible could you post a copy of the report, with personal details redacted, so we could take a look and offer an opinion?

I was a QS for an NICEIC approved contractor for several years and although they offer a customer gold standard warranty they rarely use it and just ty to get the original contractor to sort it out with the customer. TBH I don't have a lot of faith in their complaints procedure.
Hello Strima
Yes, I’ll put it all together so you can take a look. It may take me an hour or so.
 
As above, there is no requirement to hold any qualifications to carry out EICR’s, you only need to prove competence, and holding a level 3 certificate in inspection & testing goes towards showing competence.

However, it doesn’t guarantee the person is competent. Normally if you don’t a 2391 or equivalent qualification, you’re not allowed to carry out EICR under your scheme banner. I know this is the case for NAPIT, but can’t say for the NIC.
Thanks for your reply. I was under the impression that a Level 3 certificate was just a short course? 3 days? Or did I get that completely wrong?
 
So, my next question is:-
Why would an honest and competent electrician want to affiliate him/herself to a Trade Association that effectively turns a blind eye to dishonest incompetents?
The answer is, not willingly.
The government introduced part P of the building regulations back in 2005 which required certain types of electrical work carried out in domestic dwellings to be notified to the the local building control department.
The government arranged for electricians involved in this type of work to be able to self certify their own work as compliant with part P, and to notify building control. The only way an electrician could self certify and notify was through the Competent Person Schemes, several of which were set up by the government. These schemes included the likes of NICEIC and Napit etc.
So scheme membership was pretty much enforced on electricians working in the domestic field. (Another option available was/is to have the householder notify building control directly, which normally involves a large fee, so it would be more cost effective to use a registered electrician).
 
I'd love to hear the rest of the story. Ditto above. Like so many services, you never know what you are going to get. You could hire a lawyer who is pants/brilliant. Same qualificiations/experience but just not the same intelligence and honesty. I think the key factor is a person who is diligent and conscientious. Perhaps the way forward is to make it clear from the start, you will not be using the same electrician for remedial work, you will be using some other firm/electrician to put right any defects found. This is a growing trend for LLs to separate the two functions. Obviously there is a conflict of interests. Same with an MOT, again you need an honest and conscientious mechanic to ensure you will not be charged for unnecessary work.

Here is the full story. I have called the company ‘Noname’ but many Londoners would be able to guess who they are. When I go to the journalists and consumer champions with this, I will be naming names. I have reported them to Trading Standards and Westminster Building Control.

....

I have recently had an experience with an electrician who was not fully qualified in the UK, and who was sent out by a maintenance firm who are NICEIC Affiliated. The work carried out did not resolve the cause of the problem and resulted in unnecessary and unprofessional results. I then needed the NICEIC to mediate.
The maintenance firm I used is Noname. They appear to rely on emergency callouts and charge £88 per hour plus VAT. In my case, they created unnecessary work and therefore additional hours for themselves.
I had the unfortunate experience of dealing with them when my tenant rang them on an emergency callout to my London flat because a circuit kept tripping and the boiler did not work.
Noname sent a charming young Australian ‘electrician’, who turned out to be unqualified in the UK. This gentleman spent some considerable time attempting to diagnose the problem and came up with a solution that not only failed to identify the cause of the problem, it then created hours of unnecessary work.
It turned out that the boiler, having been serviced only two weeks previously, had developed a loose electrical connection. This is something that a competent and qualified electrician should have been able to identify and fix in ten minutes. However, this Australian ‘electrician’ embarked on an elaborate new wiring scheme instead.
As you may know, responsible landlords (I am one, although I only rent out one property) are legally obliged to ensure our electrics are safe and up to date and now there is a requirement for an EICR, a report that checks your electrical installation to give your tenants peace of mind. So, since this ‘electrician’ was there anyway, I asked him to do an EICR, not realising that he was unqualified.
The office at Noname was friendly and helpful and took a card payment of £312 for the EICR. The Australian said he would carry out the report inspection before he did the wiring work to sort out the circuit (which seemed a bit odd to me, but he was most convincing).
I was unable to visit my property as I was abroad, but, by the end of the day, I had been charged £312 for the EICR report on my card and my tenant was asked to pay £501 on his. At the end of day two, the Australian demanded a further £698 which I refused to pay until I had seen the invoice. He signed off his own work and left my tenants without central heating and with a replacement wall socket which used to work but now didn’t.
So, almost £1200 later, not including the price of the EICR, the Australian hadn’t fixed the problem and he had created a new one.
I was already beginning to smell a rat and I started to ask questions. It turned out the Australian had some vague Australian qualifications which, despite my request, Noname did not send me. It appears that this gentleman had done a three-day City & Guilds course in the UK. He had only been in the UK since August 2020.

The Australian had messed up my electrical installation AFTER having done the EICR, so the report was never going to be worth the paper it was written on. The trunking he installed was about as incongruous as it could possibly be.
The EICR Report turned up a few days later. It was frightening how ‘potentially dangerous’ my electrical installation was. It was full of C2 codes. According to the Australian, I needed a new consumer unit. As soon as I could get to my property (the November lockdown had intervened), I had another, independent and fully qualified electrician check the report (not an NICEIC electrician). The C2 codes turned out to be unnecessary. My electrical installation was absolutely fine as I had had it upgraded a few years ago. There was nothing unsafe about it and all that was needed was for me to upgrade some bathroom lights.
However, none of this was before I had turned to the NICEIC. I had spent time filling out their complaints form. They said they would not be involved in the financial side of any dispute. They were only interested in getting the problem solved. I asked them for an independent check on my system. They replied only that I MUST have the contractor back who did the work so it could be remedied by them. Also, I MUST NOT change the work in any way. They point blank refused to mediate.
The NICEIC did, however, concede that there were ‘issues’ with the EICR Report but, again, suggested I had the contractor back to remedy them.
I could not agree to expose myself to further incompetence, dishonesty and outrageous prices. Noname had taken £501 from my former tenant and formally invoiced him for £637.20, which he of course refuses to pay and so do I. Noname is pursuing my tenant relentlessly. Fortunately for the tenant, he was on secondment in the UK and is no longer in the country. So instead, Noname are threatening me with legal action for an invoice which is not in my name. I am trying to get my money back from them for the invalid EICR and they are refusing to refund me.
It also turned out that the Australian’s elaborate wiring scheme was illegal. This was confirmed when an independent electrician, affiliated to a different professional trade association, came to look at the problem. He was astonished that the NICEIC were treating this case so lightly.
This is a sad state of affairs. We need to be confident that electricians, whether working on their own account or for general maintenance companies, are qualified and competent.
We are talking ELECTRICS here. They can be dangerous. Has Grenfell Tower taught us nothing?
My recommendation:
Think twice before using NICEIC affiliated electricians and if you do, ensure you check their qualifications thoroughly.

The NICEIC appear to be only interested in taking subscriptions. They seem to be disinterested in the quality of the workmanship of their members, nor for the safety of the general public. If my case is typical, it appears that NICEIC members may be unqualified and member companies are apparently able to send out unqualified operatives.
My further recommendation is not to trust Noname’good reviews on Trustpilot. On examination, the positive ones seem to have been written by the same person.
 
Sorry to hear of how badly you’ve been mucked about.
I’d just like to add (as a Former Aussie) that this BS is not the norm.
 
To be fair to NICEIC, of whom I have no liking, they inspect a qualified supervisor and inspect the company rather than the individuals in the company. There is no doubt in this scenario a rogue or two will get into the system and get away (for a certain time) with mayhem. As @Wilko says this is not the "norm" I think NICEIC have the right idea in making sure the work is, in the end, safe and compliant. No doubt the firm you had working for you will send someone who knows what they are doing. Optimistic I know but generally speaking I think I can safely say the many electricians on here would never do such work. It is as always a minority that spoils it and tars the whole lot. Try not to let this happen. I can see the steam coming out of your vents from here, and quite rightly. In the case of negligence there are three hurdles to jump. One, Is there a duty of care, Two, was that care breached, Three, did harm result from it? Clearly there is a duty, and it was breached. The "harm" arising is loss of money and potential danger in an electrical situation. The remedy? Fix the poor work. You have been offered a means of addressing this and have refused to take it. If you will not take the necessary steps to mitigating your losses then you have no recourse to law in the matter.
 
I'd love to hear the rest of the story. Ditto above. Like so many services, you never know what you are going to get. You could hire a lawyer who is pants/brilliant. Same qualificiations/experience but just not the same intelligence and honesty. I think the key factor is a person who is diligent and conscientious. Perhaps the way forward is to make it clear from the start, you will not be using the same electrician for remedial work, you will be using some other firm/electrician to put right any defects found. This is a growing trend for LLs to separate the two functions. Obviously there is a conflict of interests. Same with an MOT, again you need an honest and conscientious mechanic to ensure you will not be charged for unnecessary work.
I'd love to hear the rest of the story. Ditto above. Like so many services, you never know what you are going to get. You could hire a lawyer who is pants/brilliant. Same qualificiations/experience but just not the same intelligence and honesty. I think the key factor is a person who is diligent and conscientious. Perhaps the way forward is to make it clear from the start, you will not be using the same electrician for remedial work, you will be using some other firm/electrician to put right any defects found. This is a growing trend for LLs to separate the two functions. Obviously there is a conflict of interests. Same with an MOT, again you need an honest and conscientious mechanic to ensure you will not be charged for unnecessary work.
I attach the EICR with personal details blanked out.
 

Attachments

  • ScanPro 27 déc. 2020 13.12.pdf
    5.5 MB · Views: 147
To be fair to NICEIC, of whom I have no liking, they inspect a qualified supervisor and inspect the company rather than the individuals in the company. There is no doubt in this scenario a rogue or two will get into the system and get away (for a certain time) with mayhem. As @Wilko says this is not the "norm" I think NICEIC have the right idea in making sure the work is, in the end, safe and compliant. No doubt the firm you had working for you will send someone who knows what they are doing. Optimistic I know but generally speaking I think I can safely say the many electricians on here would never do such work. It is as always a minority that spoils it and tars the whole lot. Try not to let this happen. I can see the steam coming out of your vents from here, and quite rightly. In the case of negligence there are three hurdles to jump. One, Is there a duty of care, Two, was that care breached, Three, did harm result from it? Clearly there is a duty, and it was breached. The "harm" arising is loss of money and potential danger in an electrical situation. The remedy? Fix the poor work. You have been offered a means of addressing this and have refused to take it. If you will not take the necessary steps to mitigating your losses then you have no recourse to law in the matter.

It’s not about the money. It’s about the possibility of a poor defenceless grandma needing to call out an electrician and gets scammed for her life savings.

It’s also about regulation and safety. For the consumer, there is no referee. I almost begged the NICEIC to send out an independent expert to mediate. I even said I would accept the contractor back if they were supervised by an NICEIC approved technician. They wouldn’t do either of them. I therefore don’t understand why they even bother with a complaints process.
 

Reply to Dodgy EICR (Consumer) in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

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