Electrical Report question re asbestos flashguards

[leegration]

Hi all,

I've been asked if I can provide an electrical report on a property that's going through the process of purchasing for a client.

Now, I know there's no way of deeming an old installation unsafe/"has" to be changed due to it not conforming with current regs, as the install at the time it would have complied with the regs then etc..

My question is though, how do we go about making the point of asbestos flashguards. It's an old mem re-wirable cartridge fuse install, with the asbestos guards located by the fuses themselves, those who know the ones, know. So with regards to this and the potential dangers of the harmful asbestos fibres being released if/when a fuse would blow on removal/change of the fuse, my argument would be that this then deems the install unsafe for continued use, especially to non-competent persons. Without "in theory" getting in an asbestos removal company & electrician each time a fuse goes, or having to do this all in one hit anyway and change the board etc on moving in, though this will inevitably cause the obvious costs at kickoff.

Can anyone shed any light on this please ?

Many thanks

 

[Pete999]

This is a domestic property with how many fuses?

 

[leegration]

Yeah sorry, domestic, 6-ways

 

[Pete999]

So every time a fuse ruptures are you saying that we need an asbestos removal company and all that entails, clean rooms etc to change a fuse?

 

[Andy78]

The purpose of your report is to assess the installation for safety for continued use with regards to:

• the safety of persons and livestock from shocks and burns
• protection of property from heat and fire from defects in the installation
• installation is not damaged or defective so as to impair safety
• departures from regs that may give rise to danger

These flash guards do not, if undamaged, fall within the remit of your report. You are not trained to assess the safety of a material, just that the equipment is undamaged and safe for use electrically.

As an arse covering exercise, you may may put down in your comments that the guards could be assessed for safety by a specialist if the client so wished, and that you can offer no expertise as to their level of potential hazard.

 

[Charlie_]

C2 potentially dangerous
Fuseboard needs to be replaced

 

[Engineer54]

C2 potentially dangerous
Fuseboard needs to be replaced

Crap, if that were true i'd have been dead many years ago!! I've even had lecturers admit that fuse flash guards are of no real concern, at the upteen Asbestos awareness courses i've had to attend over the years...

Pure ongoing scarmongery!!

 

[Dcf]

C2 ?
dont think so
i can see this thread turning into a total ****fest already.
im out

 

[Charlie_]

Really!??
Why so many asbestos courses? Perhaps you should go on a decent course where the lecturers know what they are talking about!
Why has there been so many successful lawsuits won by electricians against manufacturers then?
Special guidelines are in place for the replacement and servicing of items containing asbestos pads..
Why?? Because they are totally harmless, yeah right ok..

 

[Farmelectrics]

well put andy 78

 

[Geordie Spark]

Hi all,

I've been asked if I can provide an electrical report on a property that's going through the process of purchasing for a client.

Now, I know there's no way of deeming an old installation unsafe/"has" to be changed due to it not conforming with current regs, as the install at the time it would have complied with the regs then etc..

My question is though, how do we go about making the point of asbestos flashguards. It's an old mem re-wirable cartridge fuse install, with the asbestos guards located by the fuses themselves, those who know the ones, know. So with regards to this and the potential dangers of the harmful asbestos fibres being released if/when a fuse would blow on removal/change of the fuse, my argument would be that this then deems the install unsafe for continued use, especially to non-competent persons. Without "in theory" getting in an asbestos removal company & electrician each time a fuse goes, or having to do this all in one hit anyway and change the board etc on moving in, though this will inevitably cause the obvious costs at kickoff.

Can anyone shed any light on this please ?

Many thanks

This bloke maybe?? >>>>>>>>. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYmdqVaRZok

 

[leegration]

Hahaha quality !

 

[davesparks]

C2 potentially dangerous
Fuseboard needs to be replaced

Which particular regulation in bs7671 would you back that statement up with ?

 

[trev]

Which particular regulation in bs7671 would you back that statement up with ?

Thanks mate, saves me a typing job.

 

[Knobhead]

Flash guards are asbestos cement. Almost zero risk unless you cut or break them.

Are you doing a report or trying to make extra income for yourself with extra work?

 

[Knobhead]

Really!??
Why so many asbestos courses? Perhaps you should go on a decent course where the lecturers know what they are talking about!
Why has there been so many successful lawsuits won by electricians against manufacturers then?
Special guidelines are in place for the replacement and servicing of items containing asbestos pads..
Why?? Because they are totally harmless, yeah right ok..

Provide documentary evidence. Otherwise shut up!

 

[Charlie_]

Which particular regulation in bs7671 would you back that statement up with ?

I was waiting for that question :book:..
Does something have to be specifically mentioned in the big book of spells to be classed as dangerous?
Does BS7671 now take precedence over all legal acts?

 

[trev]

I was waiting for that question :book:..
Does something have to be specifically mentioned in the big book of spells to be classed as dangerous?
Does BS7671 now take precedence over all legal acts?

7671 relates to ELECTRICAL matters not asbestos management and disposal regulations so please tell us, as you have been asked several times, which regulation from the "book of spells" which you are going to quote to justify the removal of a potentially perfectly serviceable piece of kit because you can't just tell someone to replace something just because you feel like it. It has to be backed up with a regulation reference.
Assuming you can find one you can then tell us how you are going to dispose of it, after all it's riddled with dangerousness isn't it?

 

[Charlie_]

'Flashguards' as you call them were made of chyrsotile..
Are they still in use today?
Why?

 

[davesparks]

I was waiting for that question :book:..
Does something have to be specifically mentioned in the big book of spells to be classed as dangerous?
Does BS7671 now take precedence over all legal acts?

An EICR is a part of bs7671 and as such is only concerned with bs7671

 

[Andy78]

'Flashguards' as you call them were made of chyrsotile..
Are they still in use today?
Why?

So you would back up your detailed technical report based on BS7671 with hearsay ?
If you coded that as C2 with no evidence to back up your claim you would have created a fraudulent document.

do you have qualifications in asbestos identification ?
have you had the sample tested by a qualified asbestos tester ?
is the issue within the scope of the report anyway ?

The answer to all three would be no.

 

[CockneyReject]

I was waiting for that question :book:..
Does something have to be specifically mentioned in the big book of spells to be classed as dangerous?
Does BS7671 now take precedence over all legal acts?

No but to be classed as a C2 on an EICR it has to be potentially dangerous in terms of electrical safety, how does an asbestos flashguard impact on electrical safety???

 

[nickblake]

Like the guys say a C2 would be deeming an installation unsafe ,when its not, and yes i do know a little about asbestos ive been on numerous course,s regarding it , unless you get the flash pads checked you have no idea of the type or asbestos content or even if it does contain asbestos , all i would do is high light in the comments that there is possible asbestos content in the flash pad , and nothing more , the dist board could also be fixed to an asbestos sheet so changing it could be way more hazardous

 

[Charlie_]

Ohhh the naivety..

 

[trev]

Oh the idiocy

 

[CockneyReject]

Ohhhh the suspense........

Is he going to give an answer or just keep dancing round it?

 

[alanl]

Sounds like the person from the IoM, who, on the IET forum, last week stated that an EICR was a legal requirement for rented houses.
When it was pointed out that it is not a Legal Requirement, but only good practice (the installation should be safe etc), then he claimed that it was in various Housing Acts, and was definitely the Law, and everyone else was wrong.
The links to them have not been linked to yet.
We're waiting with bated breath....

 

[CockneyReject]

That sounds like it's worth a read, might go have a look and see what I can find, it looks like he's not going to answer the questions tonight anyway so I'm off to go and do my compex revision instead of spending my time on here

 

[Charlie_]

Explained my reasoning which I feel is justified..
Complying or not complying with the regs is not the issue.
The regs is not all about electrical safety of an installation otherwise we wouldn't have all the nonsense about metal consumer units and plastic trunking..

The rupturing of a fuse and the subsequent disturbance of the asbestos pads is an obvious hazard to whoever is in the vicinity.
I don't think you need me to explain all the relevent acts and exactly how this contravenes them,
if so then put down BS7671 and look elsewhere

 

[trev]

So you're the only one who is right on this issue? I'm not feeling that vibe myself Charlie.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Explained my reasoning which I feel is justified..
Complying or not complying with the regs is not the issue.
The regs is not all about electrical safety of an installation otherwise we wouldn't have all the nonsense about metal consumer units and plastic trunking..

The rupturing of a fuse and the subsequent disturbance of the asbestos pads is an obvious hazard to whoever is in the vicinity.
I don't think you need me to explain all the relevent acts and exactly how this contravenes them,
if so then put down BS7671 and look elsewhere

Can you provide any evidence of anyone who has contracted Asbestosis who hasn't worked in an environment where they would be subected to airbourne asbestos other than that that was present from a fuse blowing out?

 

[Charlie_]

Ok.. I will try another approach.
Can the asbestos pads be disturbed?
yes or no

 

[trev]

deleted

 

[Andy78]

Charlie, you clearly don't understand the scope of an EICR or the way codings are applied. I take it you also include your judgements on gas safety and structural building integrity on your reports ?
No ?
Oh that's because the report is limited to the scope of bs7671. And the reason for that ? To stop people too big for their boots including issues that do not have relevance to the report.

 

[Engineer54]

The vast majority of all electricians that have been diagnosed with asbestosis are those that were working in and around pipe and duct laggers using the blue and brown asbestos on building sites etc, in the bad old days. I doubt if you could find a single instance of this disease attributed directly to an electrician working on/with the old 3036 fuse boards.

I myself as an apprentice along with other apprentices went round all our factory fuse boards (hundreds of them) replacing there flashguards every shutdown actually cutting them to size from different width rolls of the stuff. As i say, if all your scaremongering had any truth to it, i'd be dead by now or bloody close to it!!

I'm all for taking sensible precautions, but taking the scaremongering attitude that pulling a 3036 fuse and you're destined to die, is just pure Crap!!

 

[Charlie_]

In this instance though a hazard is created directly due to the function of the electrical installation..

 

[Andy78]

In this instance though a hazard is created directly due to the function of the electrical installation..

This is your opinion only, based on no firm evidence, qualified judgement, or expertise, or regulation, and therefore has no place in the report.

I do understand your viewpoint and accept it could be a potential hazard, however it still has no place in the report as a coded observation.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Just another to add to the list...

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...asbestos-flashguards-4.html&ss=3541j1969635j8