New circuits wired into a plastic consumer unit

[TJC1]

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Had to install a ring main & cooker circuit for a new kitchen we have been doing.

The consumer unit is hager split load but is plastic. There is no room in the cupboard to add another board and the customers dont want to pay for a board change.

I guess i could just note on the form saying customers did not want to change to metal?

 

[westward10]

As long as it is safe for continued use is does not need replacing it is fine to add circuits to it.

 

[TJC1]

As long as it is safe for continued use is does not need replacing it is fine to add circuits to it.

Sweet

 

[westward10]

I'm touched

 

[telectrix]

I'm touched

WE KNOW.

 

[telectrix]

As long as it is safe for continued use is does not need replacing it is fine to add circuits to it.

not only that, but scaremongers ( get rich quick cowboys) are telling the public that their plastic CUs are "illegal". it's time someone clamped down and educated the general public. where's niceic when you need them? hiding away looking for unauthorised use of their logo.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Its about time they got a finger out of their f hole , and start puting in the country to write about part p on the tv and national news papers and not Chinese whispers ,considering they started. It all ,shout from the roof tops ,and makeing monie off peaple like you and me .they are no different to the maffia.

 

[telectrix]

buzz, you ever considered a job as a proof reader? .

 

[Ian1981]

Do all the other schemes educate the general public on plastic CU’s other than the Niceic?

 

[TJC1]

I work for my dad who has been NICEIC for the last 30 years. As i'm slowly getting more involved in the company i'm not sure whether the NICEIC is the way to go? A lot of other electrcians seems to be going NAPIT or over to STORMA

 

[telectrix]

whilst the nicnic may be a pain in the arse, it's the most widely regognised. might be a case of stick with the devil you know.

 

[45140]

Its about time they got a finger out of their f hole , and start puting in the country to write about part p on the tv and national news papers and not Chinese whispers ,considering they started. It all ,shout from the roof tops ,and makeing monie off peaple like you and me .they are no different to the maffia.

They would be better off telling people to leave electrical work well alone and call in an electrician.

 

[buzzlightyear]

buzz, you ever considered a job as a proof reader

Its about time they got a finger out of their f hole , and start putting in the country to write about part p on the tv and national news papers and not Chinese whispers ,considering they started. It all and shout from the roof tops about it ,and making money off peaple like you and me, they are no different to the mafia, it no good doing it with talk and tap the same time.
I was proofing this again at the library .

 

[chrisdungan]

What is wrong with plastic? Is there space on the board to add the extra MCBs?, no problem.
I'm kiwi, worked in the UK, wondered why you english don't use Plastic DBs in my country it's the weird guys who use metal

 

[Deleted member 26818]

In the UK, it’s the weird guys who put a rod in when they have an MEN supply.

 

[chrisdungan]

In the UK, it’s the weird guys who put a rod in when they have an MEN supply.

ok but you haven't answered the question.
What is wrong and what is illegal with a plastic distribution board
oh and yes our regs require a metal rod into the ground for an MEN point because our supply system is different to the UK

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Our Regulations changed in 2015, though I think the metal CU part didn’t start until 2016.
MEN = PME.

 

[Baddegg]

MEN? So if MEN is pme why do you rod as well?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

ANZ rules require an electrode at the consumer intake.
It was proposed here for the 18th.

 

[Baddegg]

Thanks spin

 

[Deleted member 26818]

This was in the draft for the 18th:
542.1.201 The main earthing terminal shall be connected with Earth by one of the methods described in Regulations 542.1.2.1 to 3, as appropriate to the type of system of which the installation is to form a part and in compliance with Regulations 542.1.3.1 and 542.1.3.2.
Additionally, there shall be an earth electrode, supplementing any earthing facility provided by the distributor, in accordance with one of the requirements of Regulation 542.2.3, to prevent the appearance of a dangerous touch voltage in the event of the loss of the main connection to Earth.

 

[Baddegg]

Sounds like something we can expect here in the future then.....

 

[telectrix]

good excuse for amd.1. another £85

 

[Squid]

I'm touched

By Michael, Jimmy, Gary or Rolf?

 

[telectrix]

Fred Talbot.

 

[tudore]

When plastic DBs came our they were touted as safer (no exposed metal) and more durable (don't rust). I found this acceptable then and still do. Here's a metal one that was in use till last Friday, not a good advert for metal boxes! I have a plastic one in my home and won't be changing it unless I have to. This was just below the ceiling in what was a hairdressers: obviously a very damp environment.

 

[Norah Nabino]

When plastic DBs came our they were touted as safer (no exposed metal) and more durable (don't rust). I found this acceptable then and still do. Here's a metal one that was in use till last Friday, not a good advert for metal boxes!View attachment 48256 I have a plastic one in my home and won't be changing it unless I have to. This was just below the ceiling in what was a hairdressers: obviously a very damp environment.

So you guys on here want to tell us that BS7671 Amendment 3:2015 is obsolete.
It is a responsibility of an Electrician to follow safety guidance as in the regs.and advise clients as appropriate.

 

[Norah Nabino]

Had to install a ring main & cooker circuit for a new kitchen we have been doing.

The consumer unit is hager split load but is plastic. There is no room in the cupboard to add another board and the customers dont want to pay for a board change.

I guess i could just note on the form saying customers did not want to change to metal?

 

[Norah Nabino]

Had to install a ring main & cooker circuit for a new kitchen we have been doing.

The consumer unit is hager split load but is plastic. There is no room in the cupboard to add another board and the customers dont want to pay for a board change.

I guess i could just note on the form saying customers did not want to change to metal?

Which form are you implying?
That plastic board does not comply with the current regs.i hope you have advised them.
I wouldn't do that job unless if they agree to the change of the board.
Are you signing off any certs taking full responsibility just in case something happens?
You have installed 2 circuits a rfc and cooker radial.
You need EIC and everything has to comply with the current regs.
You cannot sign of the EIC with a plastic CU.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Only responsible for the work carried out.

 

[Ian1981]

Which form are you implying?
That plastic board does not comply with the current regs.i hope you have advised them.
I wouldn't do that job unless if they agree to the change of the board.
Are you signing off any certs taking full responsibility just in case something happens?
You have installed 2 circuits a rfc and cooker radial.
You need EIC and everything has to comply with the current regs.
You cannot sign of the EIC with a plastic CU.

What a load of rubbish that statement is.
You are responsible for your work carried out only.
A simple note on the eic commenting on the CU is all that is needed.
You are advised to check the connections and condition of the CU and if it’s fit for continued service then it’s acceptable to leave it.
To tell people they must have it renewed or work can’t be carried out is just plain unethical and deceiving in my opinion.
You will find a section in the on site guide explaining this very topic of installing new circuits from an existing plastic CU

 

[davesparks]

MEN? So if MEN is pme why do you rod as well?

I think most countries that use PME have this requirement, its just us in the UK who are a bit backwards on this one.

 

[DPG]

Which form are you implying?
That plastic board does not comply with the current regs.i hope you have advised them.
I wouldn't do that job unless if they agree to the change of the board.
Are you signing off any certs taking full responsibility just in case something happens?
You have installed 2 circuits a rfc and cooker radial.
You need EIC and everything has to comply with the current regs.
You cannot sign of the EIC with a plastic CU.

Do you always tell customers they need a metal consumer unit fitting if you are doing electrical work in their properties?

 

[Norah Nabino]

Do you always tell customers they need a metal consumer unit fitting if you are doing electrical work in their properties?

I advise them and point out the safety issue strongly.
Most of them don't know the regulations and have no clue about the updates.
Most of them listen and book me in to change their CUs.

 

[Baddegg]

Is there a reg that says they need changing then?

 

[DPG]

Where would you stop though? There are many reg changes/additions that have been made over the years - do you recommend they update their installation to comply with all of them?

 

[westward10]

I advise them and point out the safety issue strongly.
Most of them don't know the regulations and have no clue about the updates.
Most of them listen and book me in to change their CUs.

It is all very well pointing out how the Regs have changed but if you're putting this across in such a way they are opting for a consumer unit change then you need to consider your ethics.

 

[Norah Nabino]

What a load of rubbish that statement is.
You are responsible for your work carried out only.
A simple note on the eic commenting on the CU is all that is needed.
You are advised to check the connections and condition of the CU and if it’s fit for continued service then it’s acceptable to leave it.
To tell people they must have it renewed or work can’t be carried out is just plain unethical and deceiving in my opinion.
You will find a section in the on site guide explaining this very topic of installing new circuits from an existing plastic CU

Excuse me i don't say "MUST".
I say to them it needs to be changed to comply to the current regs.
Most of them take my word.
You can be mad at my way of working but that is me very keen at safety so i do it ~100%.
Uou can sceream as much as you want but that is how i have been trained to carry out my work.
I don't carry out sub standard work.
I rather not do it than loose my credibility.

 

[Baddegg]

No one is doubting your standards of workmanship but as dpg states where do you stop? Are you now fitting rcd/rcbos to every lighting circuit even if not adding or altering?

 

[Norah Nabino]

Is there a reg that says they need changing then?[/QUOTEo
BS 7671:Amendment 3:2015

 

[Ian1981]

Excuse me i don't say "MUST".
I say to them it needs to be changed to comply to the current regs.
Most of them take my word.
You can be mad at my way of working but that is me very keen at safety so i do it ~100%.
Uou can sceream as much as you want but that is how i have been trained to carry out my work.
I don't carry out sub standard work.
I rather not do it than loose my credibility.

It’s very admirable that you install to a high Standard however the fact is it doesn’t need to be changed if fit for purpose.
There is no law requiring that an electrical installation requires upgrading to the latest standard.
It’s like saying that if you see red and black coloured wiring, then you refuse to do any alterations unless it’s all ripped out and rewired.

 

[Baddegg]

That’s the book not a reg no?

 

[Ian1981]

Not sure why you are mentioning the 17th edition?

 

[Norah Nabino]

It’s very admirable that you install to a high Standard however the fact is it doesn’t need to be changed if fit for purpose.
There is no law requiring that an electrical installation requires upgrading to the latest standard.
It’s like saying that if you see red and black coloured wiring, then you refuse to do any alterations unless it’s all ripped out and rewired.

Don't get me wrong i have changed CUs with old colour codes after taking all tests to confirm the wiring is safe ie continuity and IR.So after those test i can carry on and change the CU to the required standard.Sometimes the tails are not the required size.
If i do tests on the installation and find that it is not up to scrach i will advise accordingly i e to rewire depending on the nature of the install.
Luckly my clients get it most of the time.

 

[Norah Nabino]

Not sure why you are mentioning the 17th edition?

Where is 17th edition mentioned??
18th edition since the start of this year

 

[Norah Nabino]

That’s the book not a reg no?

Reg no will be quoted when i am in court.

 

[Andy78]

Reg no will be quoted when i am in court.

What are you getting taken to court for ?
Obtaining monies by deception ?

 

[Norah Nabino]

That’s the book not a reg no?

Reg no will be quoted when i am in court.

What are you getting taken to court for ?
Obtaining monies by deception ?

You wanted the reg no. and i am saying i will not telling you the reg no since you are a qualified Electrician who should know better.
I will quote it in court to those who have no clue abt it if they happen to ask.

 

[Baddegg]

You mentioned the 17th book Norah....I’ll look out for ya on watchdog

 

[Ian1981]

Where is 17th edition mentioned??
18th edition since the start of this year

The fact you’ve stated twice bs7671 amendment 3 2015

 

[Norah Nabino]

You mentioned the 17th book Norah....I’ll look out for ya on watchdog

Where is that???

 

[westward10]

Don't get me wrong i have changed CUs with old colour codes after taking all tests to confirm the wiring is safe ie continuity and IR.So after those test i can carry on and change the CU to the required standard.Sometimes the tails are not the required size.
If i do tests on the installation and find that it is not up to scrach i will advise accordingly i e to rewire depending on the nature of the install.
Luckly my clients get it most of the time.

I think your clients are definitely getting it.

 

[Norah Nabino]

The fact you’ve stated twice bs7671 amendment 3 2015

Is that amendment now obsolete? ??

 

[Norah Nabino]

You mentioned the 17th book Norah....I’ll look out for ya on watchdog

Yes go ahead look out for me and good luck with that.

 

[Ian1981]

Is that amendment now obsolete? ??

Yes the whole 17th edition is now not relevant for designs after December 31st 2018.

 

[Norah Nabino]

Yes the whole 17th edition is now not relevant for designs after December 31st 2018.

They amended it and what was not ammended was just carried over.
I can understand what your problem is but i know exactly what i am doing/talking about.
I am 18th edition trained as well.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

What was the question?

 

[Ian1981]

They amended it and what was not ammended was just carried over.
I can understand what your problem is but i know exactly what i am doing/talking about.
I am 18th edition trained as well.

 

[DPG]

Can't be any clearer really can it Ian.

 

[Ian1981]

Can't be any clearer really can it Ian.

It’s only the on site guide but the guidance from the industry as a whole and common sense on the subject is sound.

 

[Baddegg]

Best hope the judge ain’t got that book then Norah eh?

 

[davesparks]

Excuse me i don't say "MUST".
I say to them it needs to be changed to comply to the current regs.
Most of them take my word.
You can be mad at my way of working but that is me very keen at safety so i do it ~100%.
Uou can sceream as much as you want but that is how i have been trained to carry out my work.
I don't carry out sub standard work.
I rather not do it than loose my credibility.

Yeeehaaaaa ride 'em cowboy!

 

[chrisdungan]

Where would you stop though? There are many reg changes/additions that have been made over the years - do you recommend they update their installation to comply with all of them?

why change it?????
If it's in good condition
not electrically unsafe
AND
it was legal at the time it was installed
it is deemed legal now.
that's it

 

[DPG]

why change it?????
If it's in good condition
not electrically unsafe
AND
it was legal at the time it was installed
it is deemed legal now.
that's it

Errr, that's my point.

 

[rustynails]

not only that, but scaremongers ( get rich quick cowboys) are telling the public that their plastic CUs are "illegal".

I had that same thing the other day, a new consumer unit had been replaced in a rented property and had been told that plastic consumer units were illegal. However, a metal dual rcd cu had been fitted which would have almost certainly improved the safety of the electrical installation.

Now, I have never said that a plastic consumer unit is illegal to anyone as I seem to remember the first regs question was that the wiring regulations were non-statutory. However, what is illegal is when you do not meet the requirements of Part P and EAWR those are statutory.

When adding to an old plastic consumer unit like most have said certain work has to be done to unsure that its electrical safety has not been compromised or needs improving.

 

[Andy78]

I had that same thing the other day, a new consumer unit had been replaced in a rented property and had been told that plastic consumer units were illegal. However, a metal dual rcd cu had been fitted which would have almost certainly improved the safety of the electrical installation.

Now, I have never said that a plastic consumer unit is illegal to anyone as I seem to remember the first regs question was that the wiring regulations were non-statutory. However, what is illegal is when you do not meet the requirements of Part P and EAWR those are statutory.

When adding to an old plastic consumer unit like most have said certain work has to be done to unsure that its electrical safety has not been compromised or needs improving.

Which bits of the EAWR or part P require a plastic board to be changed to a metal one when additional circuits are being added ?

The opinion of the IET:

If I install a new circuit and the existing consumer unit is plastic, do I have to upgrade the consumer unit to a metal one after the 1st January 2016?

No, when installing a new circuit to an existing installation, after 1st January 2016, providing there is a spare way on the existing consumer unit, or if you utilise an existing way, there is no requirement to upgrade the consumer unit from a plastic product to a new metal type.

Source:
Consumer units: a brief overview - https://electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/issues/59/consumer-units-a-brief-overview/

 

[rustynails]

Which bits of the EAWR or part P require a plastic board to be changed to a metal one when additional circuits are being added ?

I’m right in saying the part p and eawr are statutory documents. Like I said in the case of adding circuits dependent on the necesary checks and IMO dependent on the amount of work you are doing to the consumer unit it I would install a metal consumer unit to meet current regulations on a case by case basis.