New rewire and fuse board - views on work.

[Debrahim]

Hi,

I’d appreciate views on the fuse board.

B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted at ImgBB

Image B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

It’s been completely rewired and I’m unhappy with the quality.

I’ve messaged him about it and described the board as a complete mess, and poor workmanship ship. For entry for the 25mm cables and 16mm tails he used the knock out but didn’t bother using the plastic cable holder - which is a couple of quid.

Also with the cables coming in through the back, there is no plastic or anything so the metal of the board could rub against the metal of the board.

his reply is below

a. - there is a reason why cables shouldn't be perfectly arrange in the fuse box because it could create electromagnetic field resulting in humming sound in the fuse box- you would probably think that's ridiculous ! But it's a fact!


Quite frankly I’m shocked, would you be happy with the work, paying over 4k? And supplying the board all second fix items etc? So basically 5k?

He has also created 5 additional lighting circuits downstairs, I live in a three bed terraced house.

1) for 6 down lights in a 2.5m x 2m room.
2) just the ground hallway light.
3) the lounge dinner, two lights and two wall lights.
4) a porch light and floodlight.
5) under stairs light simply 2 lights.

His reply is that it is is better… but then it’s all on a dual rcd so it doesn’t really help in my opinion.

We agreed the whole of downstairs on a circuit except the hallway on a separate one. (He said that was best practice.

I’ve attached photos and the pieces that I believe should go there. One is too big.

 

[Debrahim]

Good luck with that for a Hager RCBO. Current price for a domestic Hager RCBO would be over £35 from us.

Also if you are intending to add an EV chargepoint to this then you are ignoring the fact that each EV chargepoint must have its own dedicated RCBO which breaks all live conductors, which a typical UK-style single module Hager RCBO wouldn't achieve.

Out of interest - who is 'us'.

Is this the wrong RCBO ? Hager ADA332G 32a 30ma RCBO - https://www.edwardes.co.uk/products/hager-ada332g-32a-30ma-b-curve-rcbo-type-a-ac-and-pulsating-dc-sensitive-?gclid=CjwKCAiAk--dBhABEiwAchIwkZZ0mEjx0iIVv-zzqWULFu3km1cWGJO27E0qIJujj3vWNowd_8gBGBoCS2gQAvD_BwE

In any event I need to find a decent spark, to go further.

 

[SJD]

Is this the wrong RCBO ? Hager ADA332G 32a 30ma RCBO - https://www.edwardes.co.uk/products/hager-ada332g-32a-30ma-b-curve-rcbo-type-a-ac-and-pulsating-dc-sensitive-?gclid=CjwKCAiAk--dBhABEiwAchIwkZZ0mEjx0iIVv-zzqWULFu3km1cWGJO27E0qIJujj3vWNowd_8gBGBoCS2gQAvD_BwE

Edwardes have keen prices on some items, including some Hager RCBOs.
Around £30 is the top (sensible) price for the same RCBO (e.g. CEF), at least in mainland UK.

 

[Risteard]

Edwardes have keen prices on some items, including some Hager RCBOs.
Around £30 is the top (sensible) price for the same RCBO (e.g. CEF), at least in mainland UK.

Which wouldn't be £30 to the customer though. Didn't realise that Edwards had them at that price. Still nowhere near the £10 claimed though.

 

[timhoward]

Is this the wrong RCBO ? Hager ADA332G 32a 30ma RCBO - https://www.edwardes.co.uk/products/hager-ada332g-32a-30ma-b-curve-rcbo-type-a-ac-and-pulsating-dc-sensitive-?gclid=CjwKCAiAk--dBhABEiwAchIwkZZ0mEjx0iIVv-zzqWULFu3km1cWGJO27E0qIJujj3vWNowd_8gBGBoCS2gQAvD_BwE

Is that single pole?

RCBO 1P 6kA B-32A 30mA Type A 1M • ADA332G | Hager UK

Find products, RCBO Electronic 1P 6kA B Curve -32A, 30mA Type A(AC & Pulsating DC Sensitive)1M and more on Hager United Kingdom

hager.com

If you are getting RCBO's then I would suggest double pole units which do cost more.

It's frustrating that the data sheet isn't clear on this.
EDIT CEF have a close up of the diagram on the side of it which confirms it is single pole.

 

[littlespark]

From the first image posted, the only thing we can say is it’s untidy.

We now know the SPD is correct, taking the earth from the din rail clamp.

We now know it wasn’t a full rewire. The kitchen was already done, so it’s been a lack of communication as to which circuits were rewired. He may have priced the job on so many circuits, then on site found there were extras.

If this board on the picture was to be given an EICR, the worst outcome would be a C3. In which case, there is no requirement to have it redone.
It is not immediately dangerous, nor potentially dangerous.
Visually, the plastic board below is a definite C3, and the one hanging to the side would be C1 if it’s still connected.

Do we know what the job looks like now the board is complete?

 

[grumpyjohn01]

@westward10 my understanding is that they look like this - and I'd expect to see some glimpse of the CPC .
View attachment 105116


That wasn't the wisest move really.

What did he want to fit? Was it Fusebox? Any RCBO board would have been better.
If you supplied the board how did he end up with exactly the right number of B6 breakers for lighting unless you also knew the plan in advance?

The main reason is that the regs encourage us to design to limit cumulative earth leakage and specifically tell us to consider RCBO's in residential premises. (Section 314 and section 531.3.2 )

I have only fitted 1 Hager SPD board and it was supplied with no earth lead just the galv bar which links the 2 earth terminals and is fixed to the metal case by screws or rivets (can't recall)..It seemed odd to me but there was no further info in the paperwork. Connection to outgoing side of mainswitch was the offset busbar as shown in your post.

* EDIT * Have now read the full thread and find I am just repeating what others have said !!

 

[Debrahim]

Which wouldn't be £30 to the customer though. Didn't realise that Edwards had them at that price. Still nowhere near the £10 claimed though.

thanks for the comment but i claimed a tenner less - i.e instead of £30 ish, £20ish in some places

 

[mainline]

thanks for the comment but i claimed a tenner less - i.e instead of £30 ish, £20ish in some places

Me personally would put that Hager Cu on eBay and replace it with a fusebox spd, d/p rcbo one, combine the circuits from that other CU and have done with it.

 

[Risteard]

thanks for the comment but i claimed a tenner less - i.e instead of £30 ish, £20ish in some places

Apologies. I misread. No wholesalers here supplying them at that kind of price though. Not sure how Edwards can supply them at those sorts of prices.

 

[Debrahim]

Me personally would put that Hager Cu on eBay and replace it with a fusebox spd, d/p rcbo one, combine the circuits from that other CU and have done with it.

thanks.

 

[nicebutdim]

From the first image posted, the only thing we can say is it’s untidy.

We now know the SPD is correct, taking the earth from the din rail clamp.

We now know it wasn’t a full rewire. The kitchen was already done, so it’s been a lack of communication as to which circuits were rewired. He may have priced the job on so many circuits, then on site found there were extras.

If this board on the picture was to be given an EICR, the worst outcome would be a C3. In which case, there is no requirement to have it redone.
It is not immediately dangerous, nor potentially dangerous.
Visually, the plastic board below is a definite C3, and the one hanging to the side would be C1 if it’s still connected.

Do we know what the job looks like now the board is complete?

I'd tried to bring similar grounding to this thread two days ago, in several comments that culminated in post #86, but that seemed to fall on deaf ears and I decided to step back.

There's nothing to be gained by people urging the OP to act on the basis of anything other than clearly establised fact and a number of comments blur the lines between preference, opinion and what is clearly stipulated in The Wiring Regulations.

It's obvious to everyone that some aspects of the work carried out are far from ideal, but far from ideal doesn't constitute wrong doing and perhaps everyone (OP included) might be better served if such distinction is made clear.

 

[Mobisystems]

I have been advised that a dual RCD board is bad, and that I should have RCBO's - you guys are the experts, if its a matter of safety, i'm happy to swap.

There has been no tripping. I allowed extra space for the solar/car charger, but thought,

Thank you, however the law says that the work must be carried out with skill and care. The test is whether a ‘reasonably competent member of the profession’ would leave it like that.

Everyone here said it’s sloppy and poor. If you boards look like this then I’d be interested to see ?

He didn’t use a torc screwdriver nor did he do any testing. I know as I was there.

The tails inside are just free floating and hanging - no clip to hold them in place, is that legal?

The cables come through the back via the metal, there is no grommet or plastic to protect the cables against the sharp metal edge again is that legal ?

The socket has a massive hole there, my finger could easily fit in there, is that legal ?

The

You have been advised wrong - Installing dual RCD CU is not a problem at all. Currently we are installing the same Hagger CU in luxury apartments complex. If you want to know about what is legal or not, I think you have to consult a lawer. BS7671 is actually not a legal document.

 

[DPG]

You have been advised wrong - Installing dual RCD CU is not a problem at all. Currently we are installing the same Hagger CU in luxury apartments complex. If you want to know about what is legal or not, I think you have to consult a lawer. BS7671 is actually not a legal document.

I'm surprised you aren't using full RCBO boards in high end projects.

 

[mainline]

You have been advised wrong - Installing dual RCD CU is not a problem at all. Currently we are installing the same Hagger CU in luxury apartments complex. If you want to know about what is legal or not, I think you have to consult a lawer. BS7671 is actually not a legal document.

It depends on the situation, dual rcd boards are not really suitable for some installs.

 

[mainline]

I'm surprised you aren't using full RCBO boards in high end projects.

Yes, I would be interested to know the reason behind that, as I can't think of one apart from the cost.

 

[Dave OCD]

I'm surprised you aren't using full RCBO boards in high end projects.

High end in name and selling price, profit is God.

 

[timhoward]

You have been advised wrong - Installing dual RCD CU is not a problem at all.

I take your point that it isn't 'per se' wrong. But equally we can't say that in all circumstances it's not a problem at all.
Much as before we do a board change we IR test everything to check for faults that would cause an RCD to trip, we'd need to do some cumulative leakage measurements before stating with confidence that a dual-RCD board wouldn't cause issues.
I would maintain it is definitely an unwise choice for some installations, especially older ones.

My personal view is that we're not doing customers any favours by fitting boards that will take out half their house under fault conditions, especially with the rise in outside sockets, driveway/garden lighting, powered outbuildings, hot tubs, EV chargers etc.

Of course whichever RCD technology is used, a major problem is that it never gets tested/exercised and it may not actually do it's job at all if it sits there for many years without exercise. I'd like to think that RCBO's are more convenient for a customer to test at suitable times and fractionally more likely to get tested. That is probably wishful thinking in reality though! But if they have a 2% chance of being tested, a main-switch RCD / split load / dual RCD board is surely pretty much 0%.

 

[ipf]

Don't put sockets and lights on the same RCBO. Or was that a TYPO?

Is that some sort of device that prints out when it trips?

Take Your Pick with Over protection?

 

[Midwest]

You have been advised wrong - Installing dual RCD CU is not a problem at all. Currently we are installing the same Hagger CU in luxury apartments complex. If you want to know about what is legal or not, I think you have to consult a lawer. BS7671 is actually not a legal document.

Not up to dated on the latest regs on RCBO's use in design, but the date of design can sometimes dictate on which of the particular revision of BS7671, is used for the installation.

And whilst BS7671 is not statutory, a lot of other legislation, ESQC, Part P etc, refers to it as a standard to achieve.

 

[Mobisystems]

I take your point that it isn't 'per se' wrong. But equally we can't say that in all circumstances it's not a problem at all.
Much as before we do a board change we IR test everything to check for faults that would cause an RCD to trip, we'd need to do some cumulative leakage measurements before stating with confidence that a dual-RCD board wouldn't cause issues.
I would maintain it is definitely an unwise choice for some installations, especially older ones.

My personal view is that we're not doing customers any favours by fitting boards that will take out half their house under fault conditions, especially with the rise in outside sockets, driveway/garden lighting, powered outbuildings, hot tubs, EV chargers etc.

Of course whichever RCD technology is used, a major problem is that it never gets tested/exercised and it may not actually do it's job at all if it sits there for many years without exercise. I'd like to think that RCBO's are more convenient for a customer to test at suitable times and fractionally more likely to get tested. That is probably wishful thinking in reality though! But if they have a 2% chance of being tested, a main-switch RCD / split load / dual RCD board is surely pretty much 0%.

I was refering to a new circuit design. If tested properly, there should be no faults/leakages. Regarding old installations on my personal experience, RCBO's are more sensitive regarding nuisanse tripping , more often than RCD's. Regarding customers test button tripping the RCD/RCBO's - no one is doing it, even I am not doing it at home.

 

[Mobisystems]

High end in name and selling price, profit is God.

absolutely. cheapest offer always wins.

 

[mainline]

I was refering to a new circuit design. If tested properly, there should be no faults/leakages. Regarding old installations on my personal experience, RCBO's are more sensitive regarding nuisanse tripping , more often than RCD's. Regarding customers test button tripping the RCD/RCBO's - no one is doing it, even I am not doing it at home.

Perfect wiring isn't going to help with cumulative earth leakage of appliances etc.

 

[nicebutdim]

I was refering to a new circuit design. If tested properly, there should be no faults/leakages. Regarding old installations on my personal experience, RCBO's are more sensitive regarding nuisanse tripping , more often than RCD's. Regarding customers test button tripping the RCD/RCBO's - no one is doing it, even I am not doing it at home.

Design is only one aspect of this - none of us know what appliances will be powered within a domestic installation, but we do know that many are intended to leak current to earth. However unlikely it might be that such appliances could cause an RCD to trip, it is considerably more likely to happen when one device protects a number of circuits.

 

[mainline]

absolutely. cheapest offer always wins.

Do these hager split boards your fitting have spd/afdd ?
I'm still trying to work out why a full rcbo Cu isn't fitted, as the cost aspect shouldn't be a lot of difference between hager split cu/fusebox rcbo one.

 

[mainline]

RCBO's are more sensitive regarding nuisanse tripping , more often than RCD's.

There shouldn't be any difference with regard to the rcd side of the rcbo compared to a stand-alone rcd, In fact it should be less so due to the more likely it is that the rcbo would have less circuits to contend with.

 

[DPG]

I was refering to a new circuit design. If tested properly, there should be no faults/leakages. Regarding old installations on my personal experience, RCBO's are more sensitive regarding nuisanse tripping , more often than RCD's. Regarding customers test button tripping the RCD/RCBO's - no one is doing it, even I am not doing it at home.

Can you explain your comment about RCBOs being more sensitive to nuisance tripping?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Do these hager split boards your fitting have spd/afdd ?
I'm still trying to work out why a full rcbo Cu isn't fitted, as the cost aspect shouldn't be a lot of difference between hager split cu/fusebox rcbo one.

From memory, the difference in price between the 2 brands for dual RCD is minimal (Hager actually being cheaper if you need 100A RCDs IIRC). Once you start adding RCBOs and SPDs the price difference becomes obvious though, and fusebox wins by some way.

A recent estimate for 9 circuits put fusebox RCBO + SPD £115 more than Hager 2RCD (no SPD), so there can be a bit of a difference in price between them.

Fusebox are ok, it's what I offer as my budget choice, but Hager is better quality IMO. I give my customers the choice, and let them decide

 

[mainline]

From memory, the difference in price between the 2 brands for dual RCD is minimal (Hager actually being cheaper if you need 100A RCDs IIRC). Once you start adding RCBOs and SPDs the price difference becomes obvious though, and fusebox wins by some way.

A recent estimate for 9 circuits put fusebox RCBO + SPD £115 more than Hager 2RCD (no SPD), so there can be a bit of a difference in price between them.

Fusebox are ok, it's what I offer as my budget choice, but Hager is better quality IMO. I give my customers the choice, and let them decide

How much is a hager 2rcd with spd ?




Fusebox is the go to for me, at least for now, as it suits the price range vs quality and bits are readily available.

I'm lucky in the respect in that I don't have to deal with any customers, it's “more this is what we want doing” what do we need to order.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

How much is a hager 2rcd with spd ?

I don't have a breakdown of costs, but suprisingly my last estimate came in a tenner cheaper than a fusebox 2RCD w/ SPD. I think this is because I (almost) always fit boards with 100A RCDs. The same fusebox board with 80A RCDs is a lot cheaper than one with 100A RCDs. But you don't generally know what the main fuse will be until you've pulled it, so for me it's gotta be 100A.

 

[Gazza66]

Hi,

I’d appreciate views on the fuse board.

B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted at ImgBB

Image B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

It’s been completely rewired and I’m unhappy with the quality.

I’ve messaged him about it and described the board as a complete mess, and poor workmanship ship. For entry for the 25mm cables and 16mm tails he used the knock out but didn’t bother using the plastic cable holder - which is a couple of quid.

Also with the cables coming in through the back, there is no plastic or anything so the metal of the board could rub against the metal of the board.

his reply is below

a. - there is a reason why cables shouldn't be perfectly arrange in the fuse box because it could create electromagnetic field resulting in humming sound in the fuse box- you would probably think that's ridiculous ! But it's a fact!


Quite frankly I’m shocked, would you be happy with the work, paying over 4k? And supplying the board all second fix items etc? So basically 5k?

He has also created 5 additional lighting circuits downstairs, I live in a three bed terraced house.

1) for 6 down lights in a 2.5m x 2m room.
2) just the ground hallway light.
3) the lounge dinner, two lights and two wall lights.
4) a porch light and floodlight.
5) under stairs light simply 2 lights.

His reply is that it is is better… but then it’s all on a dual rcd so it doesn’t really help in my opinion.

We agreed the whole of downstairs on a circuit except the hallway on a separate one. (He said that was best practice.

I’ve attached photos and the pieces that I believe should go there. One is too big.

Old colours and new colours? Not a rewire but partial rewire. DB looks like a hand grenade was thrown in it. ‘Electromagnetic field resulting in humming’ - lost for words on that but crying with laughter. Lights down 1 cct, lights up 1 cct, lights outside 1 cct - that’s how I’ve always done it..!