New rewire and fuse board - views on work.

[nicebutdim]

I also agree with the opinion , that there is nothing wrong with fitting Dual RCD DB. It's mainly matter of convenience for me, when using RCBO's instead of dual RCD, in case of a fault. At the moment we are finishing residential apartments complex, using exactly the same Hagger DB's. I must have tested 300 of them so far. Regarding the mentioned above DB job, it's cheaply done, but this very common, when a client choses the cheapest offers. Normally, I would use gland for the meter tails and supporting clips. Cables contained in 50x50mm trunking(or bigger) , and using metal bushes/lockrings instead of the knockouts. All gaps/cable entry sealed with fire mastic. And at the end - all connections within DB tightened with torque screwdriver by manufacturer's specifications(nearly nobody is doing that, but yesterday was called out to sort a problem because of loose busbar connection in DB). Also I would leave a spare MCB before the 1st RCD(for security alarm/fire alarm/ disability / garrage DB circuits).

There are many things in the OP's board that a lot of electricians would do differently, but I tried to limit criticism to issues that breached actual regulations and avoid stating what might be considered best practice.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Hi guys I’ve included more pics including that of the SPD. (In my non electrical brain it shows an earth coming out from the top of the SPD but there there are the two bit coming out. As I said when we opened the box I never saw an earth wire in the box nor connected to the SPD.

This is the same as the one I fitted. I think it connects to earth via the steel enclosure and din rail, but I have emailed hager for clarification and will update when I have news

 

[mainline]

The general consensus will be that dual RCD boards should be avoided and I'd fully agree with that.

Not if you only have 2 circuits

 

[Debrahim]

This is the same as the one I fitted. I think it connects to earth via the steel enclosure and din rail, but I have emailed hager for clarification and will update when I have news

Hi well like you I had no cpc cable in the box or coming out of it, and from your pic mine looks the same if that is of any help.

Looking into RCBO’s now - is there any reason why the Hager enclosure couldn’t be used ?
This is the exact one Design 10 - 14 Way 100A Dual Split Consumer Unit c/w 2 RCDs (Type A) + SPD | Hager (VML914CUSPD) - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/HGVML914CUSPD.html

 

[Debrahim]

There are many things in the OP's board that a lot of electricians would do differently, but I tried to limit criticism to issues that breached actual regulations and avoid stating what might be considered best practice.

Hi, could you please tell me best practice ?

I’ve seen that people install a 100 amp isolator before the board.

Forgive me I don’t want to be rude to anyone, but is it possible he passed after doing one of these short courses, like the 3 week ones, rather than an apprenticeship / or the normal way of college/ training etc.

 

[nicebutdim]

Hi, could you please tell me best practice ?

The post I was responding to mentioned several ways in which they'd have approached this board differently and I'd have taken a similar approach, but not doing so isn't a breach of any regulation.

Containment of cables would give a more aesthetically pleasing look to the installation, but sheathed cables such as the twin and earth used in domestic installations does not need to be contained.

The issues to which you can legitimately raise objections have already been covered: Power and lighting should be split across both RCDs, so loosing one bank of circuits will ensure either power or light remains in any given area of the home. Cables (including incoming tails) should be suitably supported and restrained - there are many ways in which this can be done, including the simple cable clip. If there is sufficient space for finger access where tails come in the bottom, then this should be filled. Cables should be protected from metal edges as they come into the board, which can be remedied through the use of grommet strip.

I know not all issues will be covered in the above paragraph, as I'm working from memory of what I read last night, but am trying to draw a clear distinction between how electricians might approach this job and what is actually required from a regulatory perspective.


Edit: An isolator after the meter is very helpful for future work or maintenance, but no regulation mandates this additional means of isolation.

As for training? I couldn't comment - many time served electricians turn out shoddy work and there are also electricians who came to the industry through a short course and go on to turn out exemplary work. Knowledge is very useful, but can be renered pointless if not accompanied by a good work ethic.

 

[Debrahim]

So my research seems to indicate that RCBO's can fit within the board. They are listed as an accessory by TLC.

The board code brings up that is High Intensity - how many RCBO's I can fit, I don't know. A single RCBO from TLC is nearly £30 on its own.
Should I get an electrician to change everything to RCBO (if possible). If not should I get sockets and lights on their own RCBO, (the kitchen is on its own board, so if the new board trips I still have light and power downstairs).

I'm also getting a car charger, and solar, I assume these are both high risk items. So I should spend the extra and also put them on a RCBO on the main Hager Board ?

Or should I spend even more, and get the car charger, and solar, on its own RCBO board, with surge ?

 

[mainline]

So my research seems to indicate that RCBO's can fit within the board. They are listed as an accessory by TLC.

The board code brings up that is High Intensity - how many RCBO's I can fit, I don't know. A single RCBO from TLC is nearly £30 on its own.
Should I get an electrician to change everything to RCBO (if possible). If not should I get sockets and lights on their own RCBO, (the kitchen is on its own board, so if the new board trips I still have light and power downstairs).

I'm also getting a car charger, and solar, I assume these are both high risk items. So I should spend the extra and also put them on a RCBO on the main Hager Board ?

Or should I spend even more, and get the car charger, and solar, on its own RCBO board, with surge ?

The best thing to do is get another sparky in (A decent one) and let them plan it for you.

You certainly don't need all those circuits on separate rcbos.

 

[nicebutdim]

The best thing to do is get another sparky in (A decent one) and let them plan it for you.

You certainly don't need all those circuits on separate rcbos.

Also unlikely to gain any benefit from the additional expense of changing to RCBOs and sourcing new busbar. I'd be inclined to leave the current set up in place, unless cumulative earth leakage happens to cause nuisance tripping (of which there have been no reports so far).

 

[nicebutdim]

So my research seems to indicate that RCBO's can fit within the board. They are listed as an accessory by TLC.

The board code brings up that is High Intensity - how many RCBO's I can fit, I don't know. A single RCBO from TLC is nearly £30 on its own.
Should I get an electrician to change everything to RCBO (if possible). If not should I get sockets and lights on their own RCBO, (the kitchen is on its own board, so if the new board trips I still have light and power downstairs).

I'm also getting a car charger, and solar, I assume these are both high risk items. So I should spend the extra and also put them on a RCBO on the main Hager Board ?

Or should I spend even more, and get the car charger, and solar, on its own RCBO board, with surge ?

Even pairing down the number of circuits, you're looking at £300+ additional expenditure and for what gain?

EV charge point may present an issue with current installation, but there are a number of ways in which that issue could be overcome.

I'm not telling you not to make this change, but asking you to consider whether or not it's worth spending money on. One benefit would be that any fault to earth causes tripping of a single circuit, but is that really essential to you?

 

[Diddy]

The issues to which you can legitimately raise objections have already been covered: Power and lighting should be split across both RCDs, so loosing one bank of circuits will ensure either power or light remains in any given area of the home. Cables (including incoming tails) should be suitably supported and restrained - there are many ways in which this can be done, including the simple cable clip. If there is sufficient space for finger access where tails come in the bottom, then this should be filled. Cables should be protected from metal edges as they come into the board, which can be remedied through the use of grommet strip.

The above are the ONLY issues that you could pull the original electrician on. As well as the bit of the circuit that has not been rewired. Be advised that you must give the original electrician the opportunity to fix those issues before going down the withholding payment or part payment route.
These are also the only things that you need rectified to make the installation totally compliant and safe for continued use. So as far as safety is concerned get the above fixed and you are fine to leave everything as it is.

You do not need a new board - It would just have been "better" if you had at least been given the option of an RCBO setup, But that ship has sailed as it were. There is zero recourse on the people who quoted for you when you simply asked for a fuse board upgrade or indeed if it was part of other works for not offering the RCBO option....It's just that most of us on here find it strange due to the fact that the cost difference these days is minimal and it is "best practice" but not really laid out in black and white in the regulations.

I

 

[Dave OCD]

Hi, just curious, are your Meter tails burried in the wall?

They go straight through into the external meter box.

 

[Dave OCD]

This maybe me being a bit picky but

How long are those tails ? the ones going through those big holes near the twisted rcbos

Less than a metre, they go straight through to DP isolator in the external meter box. Considering the testing was completed at 3pm and the board install was complete including the labelling by 4.45pm I'd say it's not bad at all. Let's see a pic of one of your boards now ?

 

[mainline]

Less than a metre, they go straight through to DP isolator in the external meter box. Considering the testing was completed at 3pm and the board install was complete including the labelling by 4.45pm I'd say it's not bad at all. Let's see a pic of one of your boards now ?

I did mean to go back and finish this one, but the fella wouldn't let me back in.

 

[Debrahim]

Also unlikely to gain any benefit from the additional expense of changing to RCBOs and sourcing new busbar. I'd be inclined to leave the current set up in place, unless cumulative earth leakage happens to cause nuisance tripping (of which there have been no reports so far).

I have been advised that a dual RCD board is bad, and that I should have RCBO's - you guys are the experts, if its a matter of safety, i'm happy to swap.

There has been no tripping. I allowed extra space for the solar/car charger, but thought,

The above are the ONLY issues that you could pull the original electrician on. As well as the bit of the circuit that has not been rewired. Be advised that you must give the original electrician the opportunity to fix those issues before going down the withholding payment or part payment route.
These are also the only things that you need rectified to make the installation totally compliant and safe for continued use. So as far as safety is concerned get the above fixed and you are fine to leave everything as it is.

You do not need a new board - It would just have been "better" if you had at least been given the option of an RCBO setup, But that ship has sailed as it were. There is zero recourse on the people who quoted for you when you simply asked for a fuse board upgrade or indeed if it was part of other works for not offering the RCBO option....It's just that most of us on here find it strange due to the fact that the cost difference these days is minimal and it is "best practice" but not really laid out in black and white in the regulations.

I

Thank you, however the law says that the work must be carried out with skill and care. The test is whether a ‘reasonably competent member of the profession’ would leave it like that.

Everyone here said it’s sloppy and poor. If you boards look like this then I’d be interested to see ?

He didn’t use a torc screwdriver nor did he do any testing. I know as I was there.

The tails inside are just free floating and hanging - no clip to hold them in place, is that legal?

The cables come through the back via the metal, there is no grommet or plastic to protect the cables against the sharp metal edge again is that legal ?

The socket has a massive hole there, my finger could easily fit in there, is that legal ?

The

 

[Debrahim]

The above are the ONLY issues that you could pull the original electrician on. As well as the bit of the circuit that has not been rewired. Be advised that you must give the original electrician the opportunity to fix those issues before going down the withholding payment or part payment route.
These are also the only things that you need rectified to make the installation totally compliant and safe for continued use. So as far as safety is concerned get the above fixed and you are fine to leave everything as it is.

You do not need a new board - It would just have been "better" if you had at least been given the option of an RCBO setup, But that ship has sailed as it were. There is zero recourse on the people who quoted for you when you simply asked for a fuse board upgrade or indeed if it was part of other works for not offering the RCBO option....It's just that most of us on here find it strange due to the fact that the cost difference these days is minimal and it is "best practice" but not really laid out in black and white in the regulations.

I

I’ve given him the option to fix, he has refused. You will see his excuse in the first page. Apparently a nicely wired consumer board causes a hum and an electronic field. Lol. Now I’ve refused to pay it looks like he will come and do it, and we will go from there.

I wonder why no one quoted for a RCBO, including him. Here everyone says they quote for full rcbo.

Safety comes, so from people saying it should be a RCBO now I will change it, people are saying it’s unnecessary,

Out of interest is a car charger and solar more likely to trigger the RCD ? For £100 + labour I can put them in the board on RCBO’s.

Other than wiskas product is there a way to extend the cables in a fuse board ?

Cheers.

 

[Diddy]

Safety comes, so from people saying it should be a RCBO now I will change it, people are saying it’s unnecessary,

Well cheers for ignoring my and others very clear advice. that advice extends to untidy fuse boards too. there is NO obligation nor regulation which states that work should be neat and tidy. The advice was RCBO's are a "nice to have" as opposed to a must have so again you will be paying twice as you have zero recourse to the installation of the board as it currently stands aside from the gaps where the tails come in.
I don't mean to sound confrontational but I/we have essentially told you where you stand legally and we have also told you that although not "ideal" the use of a dual RCD board with mcb's is NOT against ANY regulations.

I do wish you well in your endeavours. I will leave it to others to answer any further questions as im not a fan of writing out a load of words for them to be ignored. Personally I and a few others are just trying to save you cash while ensuring the installation is at least safe.

 

[buzzlightyear]

If he has refused then your option is to get a independent spark in to write you a report of his findings. Has we give out advice not hear say, if he takes you to court no doubt he will then you will have evidence against him.send him all copy's of the findings ask the indpendant spark to quote regulation numbers and bobs your uncle antie.
Which court I'm in to day old Bailey.

 

[baldelectrician]

I am in the process of quoting a new consumer unit where the client will need a larger consumer unit

She is going for a dual RCD with additional RCBO's for, I will be installing a Hager VML91620CUSPD
She is also getting PV and probably battery storage - this is the reason for the larger unit

Hager also do a change over switch to allow the use of a seperate generator / inverter

This has dual RCD's, and is configurable as well. I still install dual RCD units as I prefer Hager but add 2-3 RCBO's as well

I would suggest you put the lower lights, lower sockets and kitchen sockets on RCBO's

If you had the larger consumer unit (VML90610CUSPD / VML91014CUSPD / VML91620CUSPD) you could remove the lower consumer unit and have all stuff on the same consumer unit

 

[Debrahim]

Well cheers for ignoring my and others very clear advice. that advice extends to untidy fuse boards too. there is NO obligation nor regulation which states that work should be neat and tidy. The advice was RCBO's are a "nice to have" as opposed to a must have so again you will be paying twice as you have zero recourse to the installation of the board as it currently stands aside from the gaps where the tails come in.
I don't mean to sound confrontational but I/we have essentially told you where you stand legally and we have also told you that although not "ideal" the use of a dual RCD board with mcb's is NOT against ANY regulations.

I do wish you well in your endeavours. I will leave it to others to answer any further questions as im not a fan of writing out a load of words for them to be ignored. Personally I and a few others are just trying to save you cash while ensuring the installation is at least safe.

Thanks Diddy but as you will see others have a different view - to the extent some don’t fit them.

Out of interest is this how you leave them ? Would you put your name to it ?