New rewire and fuse board - views on work.

[buzzlightyear]

I’ve checked on the website, he’s part P. I found him on my builder with over 100 reviews and 100% positive rating.

You are only has good what you do regarding skill and judgement.
Buzz book of proverbs.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I can honestly say that I haven't fitted a dual RCD board since around 2019 , they were a crap design when they came out in the 17th Ed and are still a crap design now

 

[Mobisystems]

Hi,

I’d appreciate views on the fuse board.

B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted at ImgBB

Image B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

It’s been completely rewired and I’m unhappy with the quality.

I’ve messaged him about it and described the board as a complete mess, and poor workmanship ship. For entry for the 25mm cables and 16mm tails he used the knock out but didn’t bother using the plastic cable holder - which is a couple of quid.

Also with the cables coming in through the back, there is no plastic or anything so the metal of the board could rub against the metal of the board.

his reply is below

a. - there is a reason why cables shouldn't be perfectly arrange in the fuse box because it could create electromagnetic field resulting in humming sound in the fuse box- you would probably think that's ridiculous ! But it's a fact!


Quite frankly I’m shocked, would you be happy with the work, paying over 4k? And supplying the board all second fix items etc? So basically 5k?

He has also created 5 additional lighting circuits downstairs, I live in a three bed terraced house.

1) for 6 down lights in a 2.5m x 2m room.
2) just the ground hallway light.
3) the lounge dinner, two lights and two wall lights.
4) a porch light and floodlight.
5) under stairs light simply 2 lights.

His reply is that it is is better… but then it’s all on a dual rcd so it doesn’t really help in my opinion.

We agreed the whole of downstairs on a circuit except the hallway on a separate one. (He said that was best practice.

I’ve attached photos and the pieces that I believe should go there. One is too big.

What I noticed on the DB, if you look at the SPD on the right of the main Isolator, at the bottom side the N busbar link is bare, like the plastic cover was cut. I know that it doesn't come like that from the manufacturer.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

@westward10 my understanding is that they look like this - and I'd expect to see some glimpse of the CPC .

I fitted a hager SPD board 2 or 3 months back. I recall it being configured strangely, it came with the link across the top, but IIRC it didn't have a CPC connecting it to earth, I think it made the connection via the DIN rail. Basically as in the picture in the OP.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Here's a photo, there was no CPC. I feel like I should go back to the job now to confirm that it is connected to earth via the din rail.

I actually thought it was defective at first, because of the vaguely red window (I'm sure older hager SPDs had a green window when ok), so contacted Mastertrade, who helpfully forwarded info from hager explaining that it will go solid red when expired.

 

[LukeD]

8 circuits on one RCD - that's not good.

Decent quality board though. And an SPD fitted.

Cracking excuse for untidy wiring - it avoids electromagnetic interference making the fuseboard hum!!

You should read some post on hifi forums !!!

 

[Mobisystems]

The above is one of many reasons why a lot of electricians insist upon supplying materials - or at the very least writing a comprehensive list.

Your new board is not what many would recommend, for reasons previously outlined, but having a dual RCD board doens't present any inherent danger. It can be argued that such boards should no longer be fitted, and I'd be the first to argue that very point, but changing it again will present significant cost and this would be borne by you as the board was your choice.

Provided the wiring in your home is good, and connections sound, the risk of problems should be exceptionally low and it might be best to get any real issues resolved and chalk the rest up to experience. I doubt you'll be using this electrician again, but in future would look for word of mouth recommendations or ask for someone local on a specialist forum like this one.

I also agree with the opinion , that there is nothing wrong with fitting Dual RCD DB. It's mainly matter of convenience for me, when using RCBO's instead of dual RCD, in case of a fault. At the moment we are finishing residential apartments complex, using exactly the same Hagger DB's. I must have tested 300 of them so far. Regarding the mentioned above DB job, it's cheaply done, but this very common, when a client choses the cheapest offers. Normally, I would use gland for the meter tails and supporting clips. Cables contained in 50x50mm trunking(or bigger) , and using metal bushes/lockrings instead of the knockouts. All gaps/cable entry sealed with fire mastic. And at the end - all connections within DB tightened with torque screwdriver by manufacturer's specifications(nearly nobody is doing that, but yesterday was called out to sort a problem because of loose busbar connection in DB). Also I would leave a spare MCB before the 1st RCD(for security alarm/fire alarm/ disability / garrage DB circuits).

 

[LukeD]

I’ve noticed this and have pointed this out.

He is a niceic registered electrician which I’ve verified with them.

I’ve also noted that if the fuse on the right goes I will loose both power and lights to the upstairs and third floor (loft).

As an electrician would you be satisfied with the standard of work ? He deems it good quality and states he’s been registered for 15 years.

I’ve checked on the website, he’s part P. I found him on my builder with over 100 reviews and 100% positive rating.

You say dual rcd is not recommended. If im honest I didn’t want to spend the money on a rcbo- there are 14 circuits.

If I wanted to change this to a rcbo, could I simply buy the rcbo’ or would I need to install a whole new board ?

Is it possible in this fuse board to add a third rcd, to split some of the stuff, in case one trips etc ?

Or even is it possible to put an rcbo in there? Obviously I know it would need to come before the RCD.


Perhaps just for upstairs sockets so we have some power in an emergency.

no this is after the rewire.

What rewire ??? one or two circuits maybe but as mentioned there is old coded cables showing

 

[timhoward]

Here's a photo, there was no CPC. I feel like I should go back to the job now to confirm that it is connected to earth via the din rail.

It's taken some concerted searching, as the numbers on the front are the cartridge numbers SPB015 and SPB105N.
I believe the whole assembly is knows as VME02SPD, and the instructions (which also mention those cartridges) show a CPC connected. But it wasn't easy to find this.

https://www.electrical4less.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ZD0906_VME02SPD_SURGE_KIT_INSTRUCTIONS.pdf

https://hager.com/uk/products/download/product/asset/file/ZD0906_VME02SPD_SURGE_KIT_INSTRUCTIONS.PDF/

 

[Mobisystems]

Yes the Regulations do not advise them for residential properties.

Here's a picture of a Fusebox CU with compact RCBOs recently installed by me , this wouldn't cost an awful lot more than the dual RCD Hager board you specified and is good quality. I think how a CU is fitted/connected up gives a fair idea of an electricians attitude to their work and any decent Electrical Tradesperson would produce something like this.

Hi, just curious, are your Meter tails burried in the wall?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

My take on dual RCD boards:

The regulations don't require us to fit RCBO boards in residential, they don't even recommend them (as they do for AFDDs, and how many of us are fitting those as standard?). It just asks us to consider using them as a means of avoiding unwanted tripping.

I don't see much evidence that accumulated normal earth leakage reaches levels where it would cause nuisance tripping in normal sized homes, even when one 30mA RCD protects the entire installation. That, along with the OSG still offering dual RCD boards as a solution, makes me think that they are still acceptable.

I prefer RCBO boards, but I still think the choice is up to my customers. I explain the benefits and then it's up to them to decide.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It's taken some concerted searching, as the numbers on the front are the cartridge numbers SPB015 and SPB105N.
I believe the whole assembly is knows as VME02SPD, and the instructions (which also mention those cartridges) show a CPC connected. But it wasn't easy to find this.

https://www.electrical4less.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ZD0906_VME02SPD_SURGE_KIT_INSTRUCTIONS.pdf

https://hager.com/uk/products/download/product/asset/file/ZD0906_VME02SPD_SURGE_KIT_INSTRUCTIONS.PDF/

View attachment 105147
View attachment 105148

The board I fitted came with the SPD already installed, with the solid link across the top. I wish I'd taken a closer look at it now, but it was a difficult board change that ran on into the evening (you know those ones where every single thing about it is difficult), so I didn't pay it a great deal of attention .

I might check this with Hager

 

[timhoward]

I might check this with Hager

I'd certainly be interested to know the outcome. I've only ever fitted one of those and had to add the module myself, and it came with a bit of 6mm CPC that obviously I went looking for a home for.
But I've seen a couple on EICRs and may have messed up myself as my photo of one of them doesn't have a CPC connection.
I'm wondering if some sheds are assembling the populated boards themselves and getting it wrong....

 

[Debrahim]

The board I fitted came with the SPD already installed, with the solid link across the top. I wish I'd taken a closer look at it now, but it was a difficult board change that ran on into the evening (you know those ones where every single thing about it is difficult), so I didn't pay it a great deal of attention .

I might check this with Hager

Indeed, if a professional, namely an electrician just quotes for a dual RCD board, then when I'm looking at Hager, why would I think hey, i'll buy these too- additional expense. If the quote was for RCBO's i'd ask what they are, the benefits and clearly a lot of the members on here suggest they should be fitted then I would have gone with one.

A bit like surge protection, he specified that on the quote and before I bought the board I sent him the link etc.

On a dual RCD board, is it not good practice to put some lights on one. side, and some sockets on the other? From memory if the RCD on the right trips, then I loose power and lights to the 1st floor, and 2nd floor.

I bought the board as unpopulated, is it possible that I could keep the board, and exchange for RCBO's.

I have space on the Hager board below, are Wiska the only supplier that allow m e to take a circuit or two from the new board and fit to the old board,

I deliberately bought an oversized board, for the reason that I am getting a car charger, and solar and batteries making the board full.

I'm clearly going to employ a different electrician and go for RCBO's - but is having three fuse boards OTT. Perhaps a 6 way board, OR would you upgrade the plastic one, to RCBO's and instead of 6, have 10 circuits.

Thanks for the help. So in short I'm going to ask he tidies the board up, (he refused before, but as i'm not paying the balance it appears he has agreed,) fits protection on the back, (both i've bought), last thing is I want a metal board to become

When it comes to judging someone #53 says it all and the picture he shows on My Builder probably wasn't something he had done.

I'm hesitant with this stuff - he gave me the phone number of a job who he had finished, and she said it is all working, she is happy but admitted she doesn't know the ins and outs of electrics. She just said he was a hard worker and that she was happy.

I was also invited on to a job to watch. I regret this now.

I thought having done all this I’d done my due diligence.

What rewire ??? one or two circuits maybe but as mentioned there is old coded cables showing

I’ve found out by looking at the other end that a new cable for power and lighting hasn’t been run to the loft.

I don’t really know what to do, I think someone above is suggesting the SPD isn’t fitted properly, - I thought let’s tidy the board up, (you can see his excuse above) and then pay the guy, learn a lesson and move on.

I’m thinking whether I should get an electrical expert to write a report, on the quality of work. Correct me if I’m wrong but if I get an EICR the electrician doing it won’t want to get involved.

Are there any electrical experts that can provide a written report? I.e if it goes to court. I know the board is a mess and that there are old cables where there should specifically be new ones I.e colours but the judge won’t.

I’ve reviewed the quotes, and, I’d like to clarify that this wasn’t the cheapest quote.

Looking at them, none have RCBO’s rather all dual RCD.

Now with those circuits still on old wiring I don’t know what to do. Do i tell him to forget it, do I deduct the price of that from the quote?

I’ve never refused to pay a tradesman and have paid everyone else as arranged or as per the contract and we left on good terms..

I was thinking last night, rather than binning the board, perhaps I could get an electrician to connect the 6 circuits on the plastic board (three either side) and then get a new board with RCBO’s as the main one.

Someone above mentioned fusedbox - would people use this or pay more for a different brand?

Alternatively if an electrician takes my Hager board can they remove the RCD’s and MCB’s and replace with RCBO’s - looking at the board it mentions ‘high integrity’.

 

[westward10]

Where are you in London.

 

[Debrahim]

Where are you in London.

South west London.

I’m not a cheap skate or whatever, so if someone is prepared to have a look over things even to say, it all appears fine - it’s just a mess then that would be fine.

It’s worrying me about the earth cable to SPD, has it been fitted incorrectly? If I’m honest I can’t recall seeing that yellow wire in the box at all ?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I'd certainly be interested to know the outcome. I've only ever fitted one of those and had to add the module myself, and it came with a bit of 6mm CPC that obviously I went looking for a home for.
But I've seen a couple on EICRs and may have messed up myself as my photo of one of them doesn't have a CPC connection.
I'm wondering if some sheds are assembling the populated boards themselves and getting it wrong....

I've emailed hager, I'll update when I have news

 

[nicebutdim]

I supply two quotes when quoting a board, one for dual rcd, one for full rcbo, with a strong recommendation to fit the rcbo board and with the continuing drop in rcbo costs this is getting an easier argument to win in most cases

I would say I get about 60% go with the rcbo board( when it’s their own property mostly)

for rentals they always seem to go with the cheapest option, even though I explain it’s potentially a false economy

I earn the same profit to fit either, I would not like to risk losing potentially 40% of the work by refusing to fit a dual rcd board, that’s their choice

I understand your reasoning, but wouldn't be inclined to do the same.

A few years back I'd have considered this a fair approach, but believe the cost of technology is now sufficiently low to dispense with dual RCD options (not to mention regulatory advice). With homes continually being filled with more and more gadgets, along with appliances intended to leak current to earth, I don't consider a dual RCD set up as providing sufficient capacity for the near future. Most homes are unlikely to experience nuisance tripping because of RCDs protecting multiple circuits, but I'd rather not make that assumption on behalf of homeowners. Providing an explanation of benefits is all well and good, but a significant number of homeowners won't grasp the principles behind your recommendation of a slightly more expensive option.

 

[mainline]

Here's a picture of a Fusebox CU with compact RCBOs recently installed by me , this wouldn't cost an awful lot more than the dual RCD Hager board you specified and is good quality. I think how a CU is fitted/connected up gives a fair idea of an electricians attitude to their work and any decent Electrical Tradesperson would produce something like this.

This maybe me being a bit picky but

How long are those tails ? the ones going through those big holes near the twisted rcbos

 

[Debrahim]

Hi guys I’ve included more pics including that of the SPD. (In my non electrical brain it shows an earth coming out from the top of the SPD but there there are the two bit coming out. As I said when we opened the box I never saw an earth wire in the box nor connected to the SPD.