New rewire and fuse board - views on work.

[Debrahim]

I am in the process of quoting a new consumer unit where the client will need a larger consumer unit

She is going for a dual RCD with additional RCBO's for, I will be installing a Hager VML91620CUSPD
She is also getting PV and probably battery storage - this is the reason for the larger unit

Hager also do a change over switch to allow the use of a seperate generator / inverter

This has dual RCD's, and is configurable as well. I still install dual RCD units as I prefer Hager but add 2-3 RCBO's as well

I would suggest you put the lower lights, lower sockets and kitchen sockets on RCBO's

If you had the larger consumer unit (VML90610CUSPD / VML91014CUSPD / VML91620CUSPD) you could remove the lower consumer unit and have all stuff on the same consumer unit

Thanks for the suggestion - I’m going to get sockets and lights on RCBO’s.

The benefit of the board below is that the kitchen extension is all separate,

I posted the code of the consumer unit, but it’s 14 way dual RCD with SPD. The plastic one below is a 6 way dual RCD. (2 spares).

 

[DPG]

Thanks for the suggestion - I’m going to get sockets and lights on RCBO’s.

The benefit of the board below is that the kitchen extension is all separate,

I posted the code of the consumer unit, but it’s 14 way dual RCD with SPD. The plastic one below is a 6 way dual RCD. (2 spares).

Don't put sockets and lights on the same RCBO. Or was that a typo?

 

[baldelectrician]

Thanks for the suggestion - I’m going to get sockets and lights on RCBO’s.

The benefit of the board below is that the kitchen extension is all separate,

I posted the code of the consumer unit, but it’s 14 way dual RCD with SPD. The plastic one below is a 6 way dual RCD. (2 spares).

The regulations prefer (and usually require) a single point of isolation. You currently have 2 consumer units with seperate isolators

The new consumer unit you have will be too small if you are adding PV etc, the max Hager do in a single row is 14 way with SPD (RCBO's), remove 4 ways if a dual RCD unit.

Your electrician could take away one RCD and install 5-6 RCBO's then you will have more space

I do use Hager as the quality is good

 

[Debrahim]

If he has refused then your option is to get a independent spark in to write you a report of his findings. Has we give out advice not hear say, if he takes you to court no doubt he will then you will have evidence against him.send him all copy's of the findings ask the indpendant spark to quote regulation numbers and bobs your uncle antie.
Which court I'm in to day old Bailey.

I’m happy to do this, but I’m worried a random spark will not want to get dragged into this, and I will need to find an ‘expert’ witness.

I’m sure a spark will be willing to give me a statement that a nicely arranged fuseboard does not cause an electro magnetic field and cause a hummmm. Whilst it might not breach a code (isn’t their one about the quality of workmanship) I don’t feel it has been completed with skill - nor do I think an electrician I’m paying this amount of money would produce this rubbish.

What about the NIC.

 

[DPG]

I’m happy to do this, but I’m worried a random spark will not want to get dragged into this, and I will need to find an ‘expert’ witness.

I’m sure a spark will be willing to give me a statement that a nicely arranged fuseboard does not cause an electro magnetic field and cause a hummmm. Whilst it might not breach a code (isn’t their one about the quality of workmanship) I don’t feel it has been completed with skill - nor do I think an electrician I’m paying this amount of money would produce this rubbish.

What about the NIC.

Didn't you say there was no testing carried out? And no certificate? That is a fail straight away.

 

[Debrahim]

Don't put sockets and lights on the same RCBO. Or was that a typo?

Typo,
Going to get 2 RCBO’s, I assume it’s a 6 and 32 amp? But only once this is all sorted I will try find a decent spark get his opinion and then potentially ask him to do it.

 

[Diddy]

Out of interest is this how you leave them ? Would you put your name to it ?

Fair question to my post i suppose. The answer is definitely NO. I am one of the electricians that actually would not have given you an option lol I would offer full RCBO or decline to quote. But as my post was pointing out I am trying to 1. save you money and hassle, 2. what has been fitted is "fine" as long as you get the bits mentioned fixed.
If I were looking for a comparison and even this is a poor attempt by me lol I would say it is like owning a 1990 diesel with full mot as opposed to owning a 2023 diesel which has all the modern conveniences and EXTRA safety features. Both perfectly fine...but one is more fine than the other. (Like I say probably a rubbish comparison but I try to give it a go lol...)
Above that If anybody working with me left that mess then they would be revisiting until it was fixed (regarding the flaws on the install). And if they turned out work like that a 2nd or 3rd time...they would never make the 4rth.

 

[DPG]

Typo,
Going to get 2 RCBO’s, I assume it’s a 6 and 32 amp? But only once this is all sorted I will try find a decent spark get his opinion and then potentially ask him to do it.

Don't buy the stuff yourself. Talk to the new spark first. And remember an electrician may not offer any warranty on customer supplied parts.

 

[richy3333]

Don't buy the stuff yourself. Talk to the new spark first. And remember an electrician may not offer any warranty on customer supplied parts.

Agreed. Id I were walking into this as the 2nd spark I'd want control as to what goes on. There must be someone on here that can help? That install needs testing and putting right.

The install is dog rubbish and an embarrassment to the trade.

I'm with Westward. I haven't fitted a dual RCD board in years and lets face it the Regs are going to phase them out in the not to distant future. It's just my opinion but if you are going to fit one you've got to do all your testing first including earth league etc. I'd be fitting RCBO's particularly if P.V. and car chargers are going to this install in the future.

The OP should report this guy to trading standards.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

@timhoward , @Debrahim , and anyone else who may be interested. Hager helpfully got back to me today about the SPD query:

Good Morning
The surge gets its earth from a clip that bites onto the din rail and then its all earthed up via metal enclosure,
Regards Jim

So good news, it is installed correctly.

 

[Debrahim]

Didn't you say there was no testing carried out? And no certificate? That is a fail straight away.

Yes I was in the house, literally a few meters away, the board was up and wired within 60 or so mins. To Identify the circuits he sent the apprentice, he turned it on, and checked which lights/sockets went on.

There was no testing, for example when you hear the RCD tripping multiple times, there was no megger or equivalent. He went around with a socket tester (the £20 one's - i've got the exact same one) - where they identified, one of the sockets was wired in reverse. As we speak, in my lounge, I have wall lights, and two sep, ceiling lights. I can't have all three on. When I flick the switch, it turns the wall lights off and the light on.

I've asked him for the readings like Zs, Zr, and he isn't providing them. No certificate has been issued. He is refusing to issue one, until he gets full payment.

 

[buzzlightyear]

I've asked him for the readings like Zs, Zr, and he isn't providing them. No certificate has been issued. He is refusing to issue one, until he gets full payment.

He must reg the work with in 28 days
Of completion LBC , but he does not need to provide a test cert until payment is in full, so if there is a dispute then you could argue.

 

[Debrahim]

Agreed. Id I were walking into this as the 2nd spark I'd want control as to what goes on. There must be someone on here that can help? That install needs testing and putting right.

The install is dog rubbish and an embarrassment to the trade.

I'm with Westward. I haven't fitted a dual RCD board in years and lets face it the Regs are going to phase them out in the not to distant future. It's just my opinion but if you are going to fit one you've got to do all your testing first including earth league etc. I'd be fitting RCBO's particularly if P.V. and car chargers are going to this install in the future.

The OP should report this guy to trading standards.

Hi,

So my first step is an EICR. I will go from there. I just don't like liars, the fact he says a nice board creates an electromagnetic field and hum says it all, even he puts something along the lines of it sounds rubbish but is true.... This is in writing, and this man isn't uneducated either!

Also I noticed he didn't use a torque screwdriver, so I said oh I thought that was the norm. Apparently there is no need, and he can tighten it up - I asked him why Hager recommend a Nm, he said it makes them money.... I had a quick look and couldn't find any hager torque screwdrivers... so explored further, apparently they own the biggest company that makes Hager screwdrivers.

I've made it clear I don't want or expect a perfect pristine board, someone posted a fusebox board which looks amazing, I'd be happy just with an okay board. But I'm afraid i'm not happy. I think it is an embarrassment to the trade like you say, i'm sorry to say.

I've been very clear about my situation - i'm by no means loaded, or have money to throw around. However I am not going hungry, (who would have imagined that in 21st century England).

I've realised that they are much cheaper elsewhere, for example TLC charge £28 per RCBO, which can be had for a tenner less elsewhere.

So a spark could keep the shell, and for £250 in materials, I could go full RCBO. Assuming it is the same spark who does the EICR, - roughly what would be the going rate? I.e keep the metal board, remove everything bar SPD, wire the RCBO's up. Would half a day cover this ?

You mention that if i'm potentially going down the car charger route, and PV (which I am) and I understand from comments (fuseboard is good and well priced), would it be sensible to discuss fusebox with the electrician. I would need 3 ways, but as this is a double RCD board, he may be willing to transfer one lighting circuit and one socket circuit - that way I am covered. An 8 way fusebox with SPD (but without RCBO's) seems to be around £60, so as long as he thinks they are good (and I will let him order the stuff as suggested, that could work).

Thank you for the constructive and helpful comments.

 

[Debrahim]

He must reg the work with in 28 days
Of completion LBC , but he does not need to provide a test cert until payment is in full, so if there is a dispute then you could argue.

Actually, the terms of the contract are that on completion I will be issued with the certificate, and then outstanding balance is due.

 

[Debrahim]

@timhoward , @Debrahim , and anyone else who may be interested. Hager helpfully got back to me today about the SPD query:

Good Morning
The surge gets its earth from a clip that bites onto the din rail and then its all earthed up via metal enclosure,
Regards Jim

So good news, it is installed correctly.

Thanks pretty mouth - I'm happy to be corrected, but I was under the impression it already came like that?

 

[Debrahim]

Fair question to my post i suppose. The answer is definitely NO. I am one of the electricians that actually would not have given you an option lol I would offer full RCBO or decline to quote. But as my post was pointing out I am trying to 1. save you money and hassle, 2. what has been fitted is "fine" as long as you get the bits mentioned fixed.
If I were looking for a comparison and even this is a poor attempt by me lol I would say it is like owning a 1990 diesel with full mot as opposed to owning a 2023 diesel which has all the modern conveniences and EXTRA safety features. Both perfectly fine...but one is more fine than the other. (Like I say probably a rubbish comparison but I try to give it a go lol...)
Above that If anybody working with me left that mess then they would be revisiting until it was fixed (regarding the flaws on the install). And if they turned out work like that a 2nd or 3rd time...they would never make the 4rth.

Thank you diddy, so do you agree that the board is a mess, and below what one would expect from an electrician ?

 

[buzzlightyear]

Actually, the terms of the contract are that on completion I will be issued with the certificate, and then outstanding balance is due.

What bad workmanship, tell him get sorted or I will get another person in to sort it and what ever cost will come off your invoice.shake the tree and his plums will fall off.

 

[Debrahim]

What bad workmanship, tell him get sorted or I will get another person in to sort it and what ever cost will come off your invoice.

Indeed, but more worryingly it hasn't been tested. He has tried taking advantage of my mum, knowing that she is elderly and doesn't want the stress etc, into thinking his work is acceptable and that we should pay up.

In his view that board is done and completed, and the balance is due. I've told him i'm not paying, from my reading it definitely doesn't meet regs when I can stick my finger in where the tails come in, and also nothing supporting holding the tails. When I pointed this out it he used some spray foam in it, saying they will support the tails?

 

[Debrahim]

As others have said, red and black hasn't been used for new installations since 2007.

If it was a rewire, then carpets up, boards up, decorating after. Different than just changing the board.
If it was a full rewire, id be checking more than just the board....

Come to think of it.... why is the cover off?

Yes, had to empty the house to the lock up, walls all chased. Flooring opened/cut open.
Had the place re plastered and decorated.

He left the cover off while he went to his van or loo or something like that. I didn't remove the cover for the purpose of that picture.

 

[Risteard]

I've realised that they are much cheaper elsewhere, for example TLC charge £28 per RCBO, which can be had for a tenner less elsewhere.

Good luck with that for a Hager RCBO. Current price for a domestic Hager RCBO would be over £35 from us.

Also if you are intending to add an EV chargepoint to this then you are ignoring the fact that each EV chargepoint must have its own dedicated RCBO which breaks all live conductors, which a typical UK-style single module Hager RCBO wouldn't achieve.