Ring r1 issue.

[Iona222]

I've volunteer to do some fault finding tomorrow on ring circuit. r1 no continuity.

I'm going to use the long lead method. Try work out if the r1 is broken, if it broken I need to blank off the socket and turn it into 2 radials. I need to buy 2 x 20amp breakers. Anything else I should look for, or any advice. Cheers.

 

[pc1966]

I've changed a couple of circuits and I'm getting 5.01 ohms on r1. Least I'm getting continuity.

I'm getting 0.55 on rn. 4.5 on r1. I.r. Live to live 500M

At least it is still present to be found.

Try linking L & N at one end (L & N open on other leg) and go round checking low ohm resistance L-N at each socket, it should be low-ish (0-1 ohm or so) on that side until you get to around the fault and then probably 4 ohm is added.

Then do the opposite (link L-N other leg, open first leg) and see if you find the fault at the same socket.

 

[pc1966]

Then do the opposite (link L-N other leg, open first leg) and see if you find the fault at the same socket.

Just to correct that, you probably will find two sockets where there is a change when checked from both direction. Assuming just the one fault (hmm, yes...) then it will be the link between them that has the high R problem.

If lucky and there is no stupid hidden junction box then probably one of those sockets will be found to have a poor connection / loose screw and correcting that ought to result in r1 & rn being practically identical.

 

[Iona222]

Just to correct that, you probably will find two sockets where there is a change when checked from both direction. Assuming just the one fault (hmm, yes...) then it will be the link between them that has the high R problem.

If lucky and there is no stupid hidden junction box then probably one of those sockets will be found to have a poor connection / loose screw and correcting that ought to result in r1 & rn being practically identical.

Gave up on it, whet round all the sockets. There's a loft but no access. High, fluctuating r1 reading. Least I got it improved from no continuity. My friend just bought the house was good experience like, but wish I was successful on resolving the issue.

 

[brianmoooore]

Open circuit is relatively safe. An open circuit passes no current, so develops no heat.
A resistive joint, like you have now, produces heat in watts to the product of the current flowing through it and the resistance of the fault.
Much more dangerous than it was.

 

[timhoward]

You need to advise your friend to have this looked at or have another go with a clear mind.

 

[Iona222]

You can't have 500 MOhm and 4.5 ohm end to end on the lines.

Thats what I got mate, im not trying to pull the wool like.

 

[Iona222]

You need to advise your friend to have this looked at or have another go with a clear mind.

I've advised him, I took off every socket, what else can I do mate.

 

[westward10]

I've advised him, I took off every socket, what else can I do mate.

Not give up?

 

[Iona222]

Not give up?

I've followed all the advise, he needs to get someone with more experience. If you fancy a drive to Glasgow?.. I didn't get access to the loft to check for cables damaged or so. I could change the rest of the sockets I didn't change. Or than that.

 

[MJPD29]

I've followed all the advise, he needs to get someone with more experience. If you fancy a drive to Glasgow?.. I didn't get access to the loft to check for cables damaged or so. I could change the rest of the sockets I didn't change. Or than that.

Don't give up on the fault. If you can't fault find you'll never be a good spark and many out there can't. Persevere and it'll be worth it there's nothing like hands on experience to learn. I've been there and it's ---- having to do it yourself at the start but you'll be glad you did.

 

[nicebutdim]

Don't give up on the fault. If you can't fault find you'll never be a good spark and many out there can't. Persevere and it'll be worth it there's nothing like hands on experience to learn. I've been there and it's ---- having to do it yourself at the start but you'll be glad you did.

^This.

Numerous experiences of sparks who walked away, when things weren't straightforward enough for their liking, left me with a very poor impression of the trade for many years. It's also what has driven me to retrain.

 

[timhoward]

I recall some good advice I was given by an irritatingly good elderly sparks - "if you can find the issue, find something that does work, no matter how simple, and build on it.".
In this case just proving that r1+r2 to the first socket on each leg (with the end linked) is a sensible number would be a fantastic start and boost your morale as you then know you will find the problem in the end. Even if it means testing each length of cable individually! It isn't the most efficient way but if it works, who cares!

 

[pc1966]

I've followed all the advise, he needs to get someone with more experience. If you fancy a drive to Glasgow?.. I didn't get access to the loft to check for cables damaged or so. I could change the rest of the sockets I didn't change. Or than that.

Take a short break and then go back. you will never gain the skills you need if you don't keep trying!

Taking a systematic and logical approach is essential or you will be chasing your own imagined tail. You might have more than one fault, you might have a fault in a hidden junction box, but if you apply some of the suggested tests you should be able to pin down the two sockets where there is an unacceptably high r1 between them.

At that point you have a couple of courses of action.

You can double-check that the two socket connections are fine, at which point you know there is a "cable" fault. It might be the hidden fault is feeding a spur, so if you isolate both good ends (so sockets 1...A are all good one one leg, and C...N are good on the other leg, but B is now open - its a spur off a junction box).

The locations of them might give you a clue as to what is up.

Maybe the junction feeds something you have not found (e.g. aerial amplifier in loft?)

If you find both isolated legs are moderately similar numbers of sockets and no other problems then you might call it quits and put them on two 20A MCB/RCBOs as radials and be done (after checking the Zs values...)

Imagine the RFC, now think of a section as bad and think "How can I find it by measurement along?"

 

[Iona222]

Don't give up on the fault. If you can't fault find you'll never be a good spark and many out there can't. Persevere and it'll be worth it there's nothing like hands on experience to learn. I've been there and it's ---- having to do it yourself at the start but you'll be glad you did.

I agree with all that mate. Im not going back the tenant was hassling me all day. Secondly other than get a key to check the loft what else can I do, I took off a sockets changed 4, followed the advise on this I.r test was 500M life to live. Im moving on. Thanks for all the advise.

 

[brianmoooore]

The characteristics of the fault seem to have changed since you started investigating it, so it's your baby now. You can't just walk away knowing the installation is potentially dangerous.
Tenant doesn't get any say in the matter. I'm sure the tenancy agreement covers access for essential maintenance.

 

[Iona222]

The characteristics of the fault seem to have changed since you started investigating it, so it's your baby now. You can't just walk away knowing the installation is potentially dangerous.
Tenant doesn't get any say in the matter. I'm sure the tenancy agreement covers access for essential maintenance.

Yip has changed. Im a trainee, I don't have the knowledge to resolve the issue, I could spend days there. The matters closed.

 

[MJPD29]

I agree with all that mate. Im not going back the tenant was hassling me all day. Secondly other than get a key to check the loft what else can I do, I took off a sockets changed 4, followed the advise on this I.r test was 500M life to live. Im moving on. Thanks for all the advise.

Maybe not the best place to learn. Nothing worse than someone breathing down your neck

 

[Markyd]

Have a look and see if any sockets have been added lately and check those first

 

[catdog1121]

Dont give up.. Try this...

Go back to basics, you know rn and r2 are good right?

So disconnect all conductors and seperate at the CU... Then remove all sockets (Every single one) and disconnect and seperate all conductors.

Now go back to the consumer unit, choose one of the two legs, connect rn and r2 together, now go round each socket with a continuity tester testing each cable between neutral and cpc.

When you get continuity you know thats your first socket (Continue to check all sockets incase of hidden JB's) so it goes from the cu to that socket, now at the cu connect r1 and r2, go back to that socket and test continuity between live and cpc, if you have continuity the connect that cable to another cable in that socket, (If there are only two cables then you can put that socket back on).

Go back to the cu and change back to connected rn and r2, now follow same as above and go find your second socket, if there are more than two cables you will either find a spur in which case go back to your first socket and connect your known good cable to the other cable, or you will find the next socket in the ring. when you have found the next socket again go back to cu and connect r1 and r2 and check at second socket...

Eventually you will find where the break is between two sockets, Once you have found the issue you can next think about how best to fix it. Its not quick but at least you will find it..

Remember you dont know where the cables are run so trying to do things by the book such as splitting the ring in half does not always work. Keep it simple by disconnecting it all at the CU and thinking of it as a radial.

Hope the above made sense and helps. Good luck..

 

[LastManOnline]

Go back to basics,

Good point. And what are the "basics"? When investigating any fault, anywhere, sparks first take the simplist, most convenient and practical approach. Disconnecting as little as possible and without taking a tester of any discription out of the toolbox we determine...
1) what's working(a volts tick to indicate, a socket tester to confirm)
2) what is, nt working.
3) At first socket not working you disconnect and work back to what is working.
The above steps will sort 90% of these "bread and butter" faults.
It's invariably a fault at an accessory.
If the above steps don't locate the fault it's at that point I grab my tester as it's now an issue with the fixed wiring

 

[UNG]

I've followed all the advise, he needs to get someone with more experience. If you fancy a drive to Glasgow?.. I didn't get access to the loft to check for cables damaged or so. I could change the rest of the sockets I didn't change. Or than that.

I agree with all that mate. Im not going back the tenant was hassling me all day. Secondly other than get a key to check the loft what else can I do, I took off a sockets changed 4, followed the advise on this I.r test was 500M life to live. Im moving on. Thanks for all the advise.

With responses like this and from past threads by you ending in a similar way I am beginning to sense a trend that is starting to look like trolling. I don't think anyone would continually take on fault finding work with the success rate you have

 

[DPG]

I don't think it's a good idea persevering with this haphazard fault finding when there is a tennant living in the property. Is your mate going to get an EICR done? (Not sure if that is a requirement for rental properties in Scotland?)

 

[Iona222]

I don't think it's a good idea persevering with this haphazard fault finding when there is a tennant living in the property. Is your mate going to get an EICR done? (Not sure if that is a requirement for rental properties in Scotland?)

Yes, he's dealing with it. I wouldn't worry if I was you. He's got a electrician going out tomorrow. I advised him further investigation without delay,

 

[DPG]

Yes, he's dealing with it. I wouldn't worry if I was you. He's got a electrician going out tomorrow. I advised him further investigation without delay,

Cool. Be nice to find out what the fault is.

 

[Iona222]

Cool. Be nice to find out what the fault is.

Hopefully find out tomorrow.

 

[telectrix]

yesterday's tomorrow is today. if sparky got there at 06.00, he should have it fixed by now. ??

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

Any update on this OP?

 

[Iona222]

Any update on this OP?

Been resolved. The house owner asked me to check it today. The spark that resolved the issue didn't leave a phone number,. When I went back to check, there seemed to be a spur to a double socket which was rewired. Think this was the issue.

 

[Iona222]

I don't think it's a good idea persevering with this haphazard fault finding when there is a tennant living in the property. Is your mate going to get an EICR done? (Not sure if that is a requirement for rental properties in Scotland?)

Is a requirement in Scotland, been for a while.

 

[James]

Bet the minor works certificate and invoice details exactly what the issue was
???