Ring r1 issue.

[Iona222]

I've volunteer to do some fault finding tomorrow on ring circuit. r1 no continuity.

I'm going to use the long lead method. Try work out if the r1 is broken, if it broken I need to blank off the socket and turn it into 2 radials. I need to buy 2 x 20amp breakers. Anything else I should look for, or any advice. Cheers.

 

[SparkyChick]

The two 20A radials is always an option, but if the location of the break is such that the two legs are radically different lengths, I would perhaps be focusing on fixing the problem, particularly if the circuit serves a high usage location like a kitchen.

In terms of blanking off... I would try not to remove any accessories from service... if the break is on a cable leg from one place to another, just get yourself some slim 4 way push fit Wagos and earth out the cables for that section at both ends.

In my experience, such issues have typically been caused by loose connections in the accessories themselves. Thankfully I've not had many that involved hidden junction boxes... but one of them sticks in my mind where I managed to get the location down to the wall behind a newly installed kitchen cupboard

If you don't fancy dragging the long lead around you could also just link our line and neutral on one end of the cable and then go around taking an R1+R2 reading until it goes to the dogs... then do the same but with the other leg linked out. Draw a diagram and record the results... can help working out potential cable routes and may also highlight whether you are looking for multiple issues.

Good luck

 

[MJPD29]

Could be as simple as a poor connection or live fallen out of terminal at one of the sockets. Break the ring in half and do r1+r2 to check continuity of live to that point. Then break into smaller sections when you've found which half the fault is in.

 

[Iona222]

The two 20A radials is always an option, but if the location of the break is such that the two legs are radically different lengths, I would perhaps be focusing on fixing the problem, particularly if the circuit serves a high usage location like a kitchen.

In terms of blanking off... I would try not to remove any accessories from service... if the break is on a cable leg from one place to another, just get yourself some slim 4 way push fit Wagos and earth out the cables for that section at both ends.

In my experience, such issues have typically been caused by loose connections in the accessories themselves. Thankfully I've not had many that involved hidden junction boxes... but one of them sticks in my mind where I managed to get the location down to the wall behind a newly installed kitchen cupboard

If you don't fancy dragging the long lead around you could also just link our line and neutral on one end of the cable and then go around taking an R1+R2 reading until it goes to the dogs... then do the same but with the other leg linked out. Draw a diagram and record the results... can help working out potential cable routes and may also highlight whether you are looking for multiple issues.

Good luck

I try this thanks for the reply.

 

[Iona222]

Could be as simple as a poor connection or live fallen out of terminal at one of the sockets. Break the ring in half and do r1+r2 to check continuity of live to that point. Then break into smaller sections when you've found which half the fault is in.

Hope its bad connection.

 

[timhoward]

Very good advice above. The advantage of linking out one end and testing, then the other end and testing is you also find the rough route of the wiring as you go without having to dismantle dismantling lots of things.
Usually the problem is between the two highest readings in each direction. A spur can confuse things though, so if you find one of them is a spur ignore that socket completely as if it isn't there.

Before you start I'd check end-to-end rn and r2 for yourself and check these values look sane.
(If you have a break or poor connection in r2 at a different point then it can royally confuse things!)

All the best with it. It's very satisfying when you find and fix one of these!

 

[brianmoooore]

Disconnect one live for the RFC at the consumer. Put the cover on and switch back on, the go around the property with a Voltstick, or even a table lamp, until you find where it ceases to work.
Should give you a good idea of where to start looking for the actual break.

 

[SparkyChick]

Disconnect one live for the RFC at the consumer. Put the cover on and switch back on, the go around the property with a Voltstick, or even a table lamp, until you find where it ceases to work.
Should give you a good idea of where to start looking for the actual break.

Have used that method as well

 

[littlespark]

Disconnect one live for the RFC at the consumer. Put the cover on and switch back on, the go around the property with a Voltstick, or even a table lamp, until you find where it ceases to work.
Should give you a good idea of where to start looking for the actual break.

Just make sure the disconnected end is made safe…..

last thing you need is a floating wire suddenly going live

 

[Iona222]

Disconnect one live for the RFC at the consumer. Put the cover on and switch back on, the go around the property with a Voltstick, or even a table lamp, until you find where it ceases to work.
Should give you a good idea of where to start looking for the actual break.

Would half the circuit not be working anyway? With half ring disconnected?

 

[timhoward]

By connecting each end in turn it can help find the break:

 

[Iona222]

If you connected two radial circuits to the same MCB (forget the regs a minute) would they both work?

OK mate, im going in tomorrow, disconnected one side of the ring, im going round. Will the whole ring be enigeresed if there's no fault. If there's a fault some of the ring won't work.

 

[brianmoooore]

All outlets on a RFC will still work with a simple single break in either the neutral or live. The problem is the likelihood of overloading the cable.

 

[Iona222]

All outlets on a RFC will still work with a simple single break in either the neutral or live. The problem is the likelihood of overloading the cable.

There was evidence of overheating on the cpc mate, I had a quick look behind 2 sockets.

 

[timhoward]

OK mate, im going in tomorrow, disconnected one side of the ring, im going round. Will the whole ring be enigeresed if there's no fault. If there's a fault some of the ring won't work.

You were too quick for me, I tried to edit that comment as I realised I'd missed your point.
See diagrams I replaced the comment with. I think you get it now.
Basically some will work depending on which end you connect. The important thing is not to leave the other end loose in the consumer unit, stick a wago on it.

 

[Iona222]

By connecting each end in turn it can help find the break:
View attachment 87852

OK ye I get you cheers mate.

 

[timhoward]

All three scenarios, one end, other end, both ends:

 

[Iona222]

All three scenarios, one end, other end, both ends:

View attachment 87854

Sound mate, hopefully nail it tomorrow.

 

[brianmoooore]

Cpc is the one conductor that shouldn't show signs of overheating, unless there have been other faults and no RCD.

 

[MJPD29]

OK mate, im going in tomorrow, disconnected one side of the ring, im going round. Will the whole ring be enigeresed if there's no fault. If there's a fault some of the ring won't work.

It'll still be live with a broken leg because it's still fed from both sides. Just break it into smaller sections and carry out your dead tests. Once you have confirmed what it is, if you can repair it or replace damaged leg all well. If not last resort is 2 radials.