Third party Part P inspections

[ringi]

Does anyone know what is happening with the new 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] party inspection system that is coming in with the changes to Part P.

E.g. how do I find someone that is allowed and insured to do the inspections?

 

[SJD]

Although the new Part P regulations are effective from April, the details for the 3rd party inspection system are still under discussion, and there is likely to be a delay of perhaps 6 months or more before this is operational. Some schemes (e.g. ELECSA, if I recall) have said not before September. There are a lot of issues to be resolved.

 

[Silly Sausage]

It's pathetic really.
A bit like NICEIC didn't have the EICR forms ready for about 6 months.
Shambles, it's not as if they haven't had much time to get things in place!
I'm quite happy to do 3rd I&Ts, but I'm not shelling out £500 to join a scam.
Be interesting to see how this is going to be dealt with. I'm prepared to be totally disappointed with whatever BullCrap they come up with!

 

[Guitarist]

Sounds like a plan actually. I'll get a load of cash for doing the work, then let someone else get a pittance for doing the boring testing and paperwork. Time to say goodbye to being registered... :seeya:

 

[ringi]

Sounds like a plan actually. I'll get a load of cash for doing the work, then let someone else get a pittance for doing the boring testing and paperwork. Time to say goodbye to being registered... :seeya:

I tend to think that it is safer having the work tested and inspected by a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] person anyway as two sets of eyes are better than one.

At least the new system will allow a house owner to pull their own cables etc. before getting a “Part P” person in it to test and connect to the consumer unit.

As a DIYer I find it odd that I am allowed to add any number of sockets to a ring circuit when it can be hard to work out how the current system is (mis)connected, but I not allowed to add a new radial circuit when I can just look in a book and do what it says.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Installation, your avin alarf!
Get covered in crap etc etc...
I&T every time for me, go to work in your smart clothes, when finished, straight down town to spend the easy cash!

 

[Guitarist]

I tend to think that it is safer having the work tested and inspected by a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] person anyway as two sets of eyes are better than one.

At least the new system will allow a house owner to pull their own cables etc. before getting a “Part P” person in it to test and connect to the consumer unit.

As a DIYer I find it odd that I am allowed to add any number of sockets to a ring circuit when it can be hard to work out how the current system is (mis)connected, but I not allowed to add a new radial circuit when I can just look in a book and do what it says.

Even DIY'ers are supposed to be competent to carry out all electrical work, including calculations.

 

[Octopus]

I think this 3rd party sign off is a shambles in the making.

Its supposed to be "live" from the 6th April '13 but Elecsa have admitted they won't even be discussing it until September so lord knows whe they will be making any decisions.

I'm happy to do EICR's and I'll continue to do so. I'm not a scheme member for EICR's and won't be signing up for this either.

So to the scheme "employees" who read this - "get your fingers out"

This surely is the beginning of the end to the scam schemes

 

[Silly Sausage]

Oi Murd,
I predict that one will be have to be registered with the scams to do 3rd parties, along with the wedge.

I've noticed that a lot of you are saying 'No way am I signing off someone else's work'.
I can't see the problem, you're just testing and making a report, it's not your work and if the job is rubbish, fail it!
Sounds like easy cash to me.

 

[Guitarist]

However you want to dress it up, it's not like carrying out an EICR on an existing installation, usually completed by a competent person. The DIY client will want you to inspect and test it and tell them that it is "fit for purpose" and comply with regs when in reality you simply won't know. The DIY chains will obviously love this, as it effectively says to DIY'ers "Do what you like and someone else will take responsibility for it, as they will sign to say that it's hunky dory."
Whether or not it sounds like "easy cash", imo it's another step down the road to devaluing the trade.

 

[ringi]

However you want to dress it up, it's not like carrying out an EICR on an existing installation, usually completed by a competent person.

Firstly most existing installations have had lots of different people working on them over many years; I would not assume that these people were competent. You don’t know how many DIYers have touched it.

Hence I intend to get an EICR on any property I rent out, as checking the unknown is a very skilled job.

You don’t have to take on all inspection jobs that are offered to you. Also a lot of DIYers would be very happy to pay for the “design” and calcs to be checked before they started. You also know what has changed, e.g what you are being paid to test.
(There may also be money to be made by selling the DIYers items you can get cheaply on your trade account at the time you do the design check.)

Refusing to sign off work that is not to standard, is no different then expecting the auditor being paid by a company not to sign the accounts if there are errors. Standing up to clients and telling them what they don’t wish to be told is a basic part of being a professional.

 

[SJD]

You don’t have to take on all inspection jobs that are offered to you. Also a lot of DIYers would be very happy to pay for the “design” and calcs to be checked before they started. You also know what has changed, e.g. what you are being paid to test.

Clause 3.5 of 2013 edition of Part P does mention that “before work begins, an installer … may appoint a registered third party certifier to inspect and test the work as necessary”. I would interpret this that you do have to have your third party certified on board before starting work, e.g. to check what is planned, such as cable sizes, cable routes, etc.

Clause 3.6 is interesting, “within 5 days of completing the work, the installer must notify the registered third party certifier who, subject to the results of the inspection and testing being satisfactory, should then complete an EICR and …” So you are issuing an EICR, not an EIC or MEIWC. And can you perhaps operate the installation in those intervening 5 days with no testing whatsoever, just switch it on?

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I think this 3rd party sign off is a shambles in the making.

Its supposed to be "live" from the 6th April '13 but Elecsa have admitted they won't even be discussing it until September so lord knows whe they will be making any decisions.

I'm happy to do EICR's and I'll continue to do so. I'm not a scheme member for EICR's and won't be signing up for this either.

So to the scheme "employees" who read this - "get your fingers out"

This surely is the beginning of the end to the scam schemes

i hope so

 

[Guitarist]

Standing up to clients and telling them what they don’t wish to be told is a basic part of being a professional.

I often do. I still maintain that this proposal will make the average joe public who thinks he knows what he's doing even less respectful of electricians as "anyone can do it and just get it signed off".

 

[Silly Sausage]

I've just seen a HUGE flaw in this new 3rd party certification...see 3.7...
building control only needs to be notified once a satisfactory report has been issued.

So DIY Dave does his hatchet job, Pro Pete comes to I&T, fails it and goes away.
Dave doesn't give a whathaveyou, BC never hear about it...

Hahahahaha....what a complete utter farce. And people get paid vasts amount of money to generate this :censored:

 

[craig1000]

What a joke!
Surely there should be something in place so that if a unsatisfactory is issued then building control are notified and then follow it up to make sure it gets rectified and re tested and a Satisfactory issued upon completion of rectifications!
That would be far too simple I guess! ;-)

 

[brucelee]

I contacted Elecsa regarding this yesterday and they said its still in the process of discussion and nothing is finalised, I said well thats about as clear as mud when it comes into force with the new part P requirements on the 6th APRIL

I said will this mean i could effectively sign someone elses work off and notify through the scheme

They said you can sign it off but wouldnt be able to notify through my registration so were do you notify it lol
and do the designers , Installers sign jsut for that and I sign a EIC for I&T
or will it be like now were basically you cant sign an EIC for someone elses work only carry out an EICR

So the DIYer is supposed to be able to design , Install and I&T so have calibrated test equipment etc complete a certificate and then get us in to carry out another I&T for the EICR

WHAT A COMPLETE CROCK OF ????

second question to elecsa was regarding the register and why ELECSA approved contractors are only shown as DI status when they may be carrying out all types of work But the NICEIC are shown as approved contractors so this may have a resulting effect of undermining the type of work an ELECSA approved contractor gets

3rd and final Question
when applying to JIB for GOLD card and QS status a ELECSA registered eneterprise has to show a registratation and certifcate for the assessment that has to be dated within last 3 months BUT Napit and NIC are allowed to send one in thats dated in last 12 months ??
answer so if a contractor was 11 months into registration applying for gold card with QS status but then either failed or left the scheme they couldnt get the status

STILL didnt answer my question why the difference between elecsa contractors and the others when all are supposed to be equal in there requirements of competence

I thought ELECSA were the best of all schemes but recent changes like joining NIC and all this malarky is changing my mind.:dizzy2::icon13::behead:

 

[craig1000]

Needs just one goverment body and none of these bloody scams!

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I've just seen a HUGE flaw in this new 3rd party certification...see 3.7...
building control only needs to be notified once a satisfactory report has been issued.

So DIY Dave does his hatchet job, Pro Pete comes to I&T, fails it and goes away.
Dave doesn't give a whathaveyou, BC never hear about it...

Hahahahaha....what a complete utter farce. And people get paid vasts amount of money to generate this :censored:

so that is condoning undesigned work done by anyone, anywhere, unsupervised, and never needs notifying

schemes- what are they for again?

 

[Guitarist]

so that is condoning undesigned work done by anyone, anywhere, unsupervised, and never needs notifying

schemes- what are they for again?

That was my point really. It's saying that anyone who deems themself competent (and many idiots do) can carry out the work, then get it checked.

 

[ringi]

At present someone that does DIY work cannot get it checked easily, so often just hide the fact that the work has been done. Or designs the work in a way so as to avoid Part P, e.g. adding lots of sockets to a current ring rather than putting in a new ring.

I would expect someone like “DIY Dave” to keep doing what they have always been doing and not give a whathaveyou, so not get anyone in to check the work regardless of the regs.

However I think the much bigger issue are people being charged for sub-standard work by kitchen fitters etc and believing they have had a good job done. Personally I would like to all work that have been charged for (directly or as part of another job) having to be notified.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Thats the point though all this cobblers is just tinkering with a flawed and annoying system that simply benefits a middle layer by lining their pockets at our expense and the destroys the reputation of our industry.

there is, and always was, a simple answer.

make electrical work to be done by registered sparkys mandatory and not just regulatory

have one governing body that is non profit making and is there for the good of all

make it an offence to sell electrical goods to anyone other than a registered spark,


What was so difficult to do there?

 

[craig1000]

there is, and always was, a simple answer.

make electrical work to be done by registered sparkys mandatory and not just regulatory

have one governing body that is non profit making and is there for the good of all

So simple to do yet will never happy! If bloody only!


make it an offence to sell electrical goods to anyone other than a registered spark,


What was so difficult to do there? [/QUOTE]

 

[Guitarist]

At present someone that does DIY work cannot get it checked easily, so often just hide the fact that the work has been done. Or designs the work in a way so as to avoid Part P, e.g. adding lots of sockets to a current ring rather than putting in a new ring.

I would expect someone like “DIY Dave” to keep doing what they have always been doing and not give a whathaveyou, so not get anyone in to check the work regardless of the regs.

However I think the much bigger issue are people being charged for sub-standard work by kitchen fitters etc and believing they have had a good job done. Personally I would like to all work that have been charged for (directly or as part of another job) having to be notified.

I agree with most of what you say.
There will be one distinct and important change in April though, and that is the "perceived" legitimacy of carrying out electrical work by non-electricians. Of course there has always been, and always will be your DIY'er/builder/plumber etc who will do it anyway, but the new "do it and get it checked" system will say to everyone that an electrician isn't really needed for anything except testing. What a message to send out!

 

[telectrix]

which bears as much relevance to this thread as a hairbrush to bobby charlton.

 

[sparkdog]

I don't think anyone without the ability to test and having the equipment should be allowed to do electrics.I recently had a simple job to replace a light pendant.No Zs reading and no Zs anywhere upstairs so now I am going to have to sort that out.Turns out possibly the builders did the electrics in a bathroom refurbishment and I bet they don't even know what Zs is.

 

[Guitarist]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz's

What builders do when nobody's looking?

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I don't think anyone without the ability to test and having the equipment should be allowed to do electrics.I recently had a simple job to replace a light pendant.No Zs reading and no Zs anywhere upstairs so now I am going to have to sort that out.Turns out possibly the builders did the electrics in a bathroom refurbishment and I bet they don't even know what Zs is.

EXACTLY!!!

which is why people shouldnt be bodging their houses either!!!!

 

[Octopus]

EXACTLY!!!

which is why people shouldnt be bodging their houses either!!!!

Hum.... DIYers bodging their own homes is one thing, but builders, kitchen fitters, plumbers, et al charging unsuspecting people and doing bad stuff is the issue I think

 

[Guitarist]

Job I did earlier in the year which included 2 new CU's in a property. Tested R1+R2 at each metal light fitting, but nothing at a few of them. The owner had installed several aluminium fittings throughout the house the previous year and diligently connected all cpc's as instructed. Turned out to be a JB under the floorboards with external cpc's in ceramic block...several had popped out, hence no cpc continuity.
No way he could know, as no testing had been done.