- Thread starter bjouis
- Start date
Great idea. But again standard kitchens don't build that space into their design
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nicebutdim
Kitchen designers would pass out at the thought of any such gap. You could certainly specify it in your own home, but most customers aren't going to accept it.
Wiring regs require an accessible means of isolation for all appliances.
That's true enough. Often though you will get away with it if it's a flush fitted socket. I rarely do that though.As kitchen plans change and I hate moving stuff I prefer to leave a loose hanging 2.5 in the nominated area for the appliance and after kitchen is fitted, check out any "favourable" spaces in cupboards first. Failing that I check out the appliance to see where the "pockets" of space are at the back and mount my socket accordingly
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nicebutdim
My limited experience of appliances suggests those pockets of space are never the same on replacements. Ovens generally tend to have that space at the top, but with other appliances all bets are off.
I've noticed that up here sparks tend to place unswitched sockets behind sink units, when dishwasher or washing machine are fitted next to them. Something in my brain doesn't like that, but it's much more accessible than being placed behind the appliance and also deals with the issue of space.
Are they used with a separate isolating switch (e.g. grid switch or similar) that is accessible?
Yes. Traditionally that's the way we all did it. Many people have concerns about them been under the sink but it actually is not a problem in my view. Have never experienced a problem with it. Those who complain about a socket under the sink often ignore the fact that half the D. B, s in this this country are located in the hallway, downstairs by the frontdoor, with the upstairs bathroom directly overhead. Now that makes, me feel incomfortable
I think "Kitchen Designers" is an oxymoron, the tray space is a very useful way or storing trays without taking up room in the kitchen cupboards, in a UK standard Kitchen space is at a premium with White goods as most house's do not have Utility rooms, so I feel it is an acceptable solution to the socket accessibility problem most perceive they have.
IMHO... that 'tray space' idea looks bl00dy awful ! I'd never design that into my kitchen and if a 'kitchen designer' offered that... he'd be asked to leave immediately. The only way something like that could work for me, is if that space was all lined out, with a door, including a removable rear panel that would cover all those sockets. However most kitchens are so very very tight on space, it's highly unlikely to happen. I wired up a new kitchen last week... massive space, like 15m x 5m... but even then, the units were all cut down to make them fit. Every spare millimeter was used.
Yes - within 2m and readily accessible.
I don't consider putting a socket behind a washing machine or whatever as being readily accessible, or in an adjacent cupboard full of crockery, but then I like the tray space and so does the major user of the kitchen, who is the one that counts after all.
And forgot to say it's in the Wiring Rules.
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nicebutdim
I've dealt with a few leaks over the years, but never once at the plumbing under a kitchen sink. It's more the idea of such placement that doesn't sit well with me, rather than the reality, but it's certainly a lot more accessible than behind the adjacent appliance.
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nicebutdim
Do people still have trays in their homes? Must admit it's not something we have in this house - on the rare occasion a guest ventures through the door, we put their food directly onto a plate.
It's easy to make flippant comments about the work that others do, but I'd imagine that the people who design kitchens are up against it from every angle. Customers want the nicest looking kitchen that money can buy, but often wont want to pay more than the prices on display in B&Q. I'd imagine practicality and aesthetics are afforded equal priority by their customers, so eveything must look perfect, while affording Tardis like spaces behind each door.
This is what I imagine most designers would aim for, provided the budget allows - everything fully integrated, except an oven for obvious reasons and other appliances ideally situated elsewhere. Although not much can be done to hide a washer or dryer if they're fitted in a kitchen
The idea of an enclosed tray space is certainly much better than a visible gap, but I can't see most people wanting it.
Ultimately I'm happy to move an appliance to access its plug as generally it'll be coming out for repair or replacement. For all other occasions I use the means of isolation fitted above worktop level.
I seem to have started a bit of a discussion on this point, with nicebutdim and his sycophant DPG, but as you become more mature you find that trays are a convenient thing to use when you wish to eat in comfort in the living room watching the TV, the children have moved out and you do what you want rather than panda to your wants or your aspiration's for them.
Flippant or not my comment re "Kitchen Designers" being an oxymoron was a genuine comment, the design of a kitchen layout is one of the easiest things to do, if you can draw and work to scale, if that is too difficult for some then so be it, be in awe of those that can.
If guests venture into our house then obviously the full regalia is used in the dinning room with the best cutlery, candelabra with the Villeroy Bosch china, but it happens less and less as your peers die off.
Flippant or not my comment re "Kitchen Designers" being an oxymoron was a genuine comment, the design of a kitchen layout is one of the easiest things to do, if you can draw and work to scale, if that is too difficult for some then so be it, be in awe of those that can.
If guests venture into our house then obviously the full regalia is used in the dinning room with the best cutlery, candelabra with the Villeroy Bosch china, but it happens less and less as your peers die off.
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Mike, I've resisted making some comments previously, and will endeavour to keep doing the same, despite your obvious feeling that you are more knowledgable about everything than other people.
You really don't like it when people make negative comments about your posts do you?
Also I see you're jealous about me liking other people's posts rather than yours. Makes me chuckle that, thanks.
Oh, and it's 'pander', not bloody panda!
Never resist, it's nice to think I keep you on your TOW'S but it's very gratifying that you need to follow my post so closely, you obviously have nothing better to do?
I'm following interesting threads. Your posts interrupt them every now and again.
There is a convenient block on the side bar, use it if you don't want to read my posts.
Thanks Mike. Appreciate the tip.
You are welcome, but as a "Patron" of this Forum you ought to be more tolerant of other peoples views and post's.
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nicebutdim
I think you're giving me too much credit by implying that anyone might care about my opinions.
Getting back on track, the point I was making is that those guys need to turn out work to a certain aesthetic and practical standard. While customers will make all manner of requests that need to be accomodated, it's unlikely that many will request space for sockets inbetween appliances - furthermore, if this inclusion was suggested to those customers, I suspect the vast majority would dismiss the idea out of hand. I'm not in awe of kitchen designers, but simply recognise the fact that they're serving customers and, while they can suggest various ideas, can not force those customers into anything that isn't a legal requirement.
To put it another way; if I'd suggested that our recent kitchen had incorporated a tray space, I can assure you that Mrs nicebutdim would have made herself very clear in explaining that nothing of the sort would be a part of her new kitchen.
My own view on fitted kitchens is the concern that once an appliance dies you can't get a replacement that fits the "fitted" hole. In my own case i have very limited depth for the washing machine and recently found only 2-3 models out of 100+ on most sites would fit. Same issue with the fridge/freezer, NEF stopped making that size years ago so I had to get creative with the jigsaw to fit something else 
Maybe not a concern for those who feel an "upgrade" is needed every 5 years, but for a tight-wad like myself I want to use the same layout for decades!
Maybe not a concern for those who feel an "upgrade" is needed every 5 years, but for a tight-wad like myself I want to use the same layout for decades!
The sliding tray space with door I have incorporated into our kitchen design in France, is also used to house the many cutting boards we have, it is so convenient I can't see us doing without it, cleans up the kitchen worktops and stops us have to search for a cutting board.
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nicebutdim
My own view on fitted kitchens is the concern that once an appliance dies you can't get a replacement that fits the "fitted" hole. In my own case i have very limited depth for the washing machine and recently found only 2-3 models out of 100+ on most sites would fit. Same issue with the fridge/freezer, NEF stopped making that size years ago so I had to get creative with the jigsaw to fit something else
Maybe not a concern for those who feel an "upgrade" is needed every 5 years, but for a tight-wad like myself I want to use the same layout for decades!
Most appliances are of fairly standard dimensions in kitchens built during the last 30+ years. Integrated microwaves would be the main exception and it's basically impossible to replace them without leaving (or having to fill) gaps.
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nicebutdim
I'd have no issue with that design, Mike. I just don't see it being an easy sell to the average punter.
Nearly everyone I know has more than one cutting board, where do they keep them, mostly on the worktops cluttering up the usable area, most of the people I know are average punter's. (wink face)
Yes. Unfortunately time teaches all sparks that the jigsaw is an essential tool when working in kitchens. I find replacing hobs to be the worst culprit in this regard.My own view on fitted kitchens is the concern that once an appliance dies you can't get a replacement that fits the "fitted" hole. In my own case i have very limited depth for the washing machine and recently found only 2-3 models out of 100+ on most sites would fit. Same issue with the fridge/freezer, NEF stopped making that size years ago so I had to get creative with the jigsaw to fit something else
Maybe not a concern for those who feel an "upgrade" is needed every 5 years, but for a tight-wad like myself I want to use the same layout for decades!
Regarding kitchens in general though, two of my golden rules are..
1 get kitchen plan
2 get kitchen fitters number
After that I can usually work out the easiest wiring routes and most convenient locations for installing appliances sockets. Plus I suggest to customers where the isolators can be mounted in order to be be "accessible" but "out of sight". Don't like looking at them myself. Spoils the tiling too
I like this, design by the way. Works a treat in utilities where homeowners are, nt fixated on appearance.
Regarding kitchen design, I have done 2 of my own where I built what I call a"tower unit". Basically it's a converted fridge freezer unit where I place instead all the appliances you would normally use in a kitchen along with all the sockets, isolators etc. When you walk in to my kitchen you ee only 1 socket for the kettle and it's covered by the fruit bowl. Tried to get kitchen designers interested in it but zero interest I, m afraid ?
Nasty back handed slight.
Mike. You have made me laugh. I can see in hindsight how it could be read that way. Believe me, no slight intended. I, m not clever enough for subtle humour (or sarcasm)
I've only got one chopping board... it's used so often it's almost become a permanent fixture to the worktop. In fact since the wife left me... it really has become a permanent fixture as it's kind of glued itself to the worktop. It's hard to see exactly what's holding it down with all the breadcrumbs and congealed bits around it though...
We've got 2 chopping boards in use. And a glass worktop saver - does that count?
I cut up an Ikea chopping board to use as mitre board sliders for my table saw, I did take it off the worktop first though.
From rings and radials to chopping boards. Gotta, love the versatility of this forum?
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